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Comments about the soundtrack for A.I. (John Williams)
Williams go home

ugly joe
(217.127.1.157)


  Responses to this Comment:
Levente Benedek
Levente Benedek
Williams go home   Monday, September 10, 2001 (11:41 a.m.) 

I'm really fed up with William's style of music. However,most critics seem to prefer his anachronic and old-fashioned style over great MAESTRO Hans Zimmer. Zimmer is the best film composer, you silly people!!!

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Levente Benedek
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ugly joe

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ugly joe
Josh
Re: Williams go home   Monday, September 10, 2001 (1:06 p.m.) 

> I'm really fed up with William's style of music. However,most critics seem
> to prefer his anachronic and old-fashioned style over great MAESTRO Hans
> Zimmer. Zimmer is the best film composer, you silly people!!!

Dear ugly joe. I understand yoe very much. I'm a very very big fan of Zimmer, and I know that the Academy does't like him very much and of course the critics. Why? Because he is an innovator. I know a lot of people in my school and they all say that Zimmer is the king.

Your understanding friend: Levente Benedek

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ugly joe
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Levente Benedek

  Responses to this Comment:
David Pintado
S.Venkatnarayanan
Re: Williams go home   Tuesday, September 11, 2001 (12:00 p.m.) 

Dear Levente Benedek:
Thank you very much for your support. I know that there are many people out there who know who is the greatest film composer ever (as opposed to that Melomaniac, who must be drunk). As you have pointed out, Zimmer is the only one innovator in film music. Before him, only the great Vangelis had managed to use successfully synthesizers in film music. Do you know what's the problem with critics?. They are sort of mummies who think that the best music ever is classical music, and who therefore think that only those composers who have a classical training and style can deliver us with truly master pieces. But this is an error. Synthesizers allow us to make use of a huge amount of different sounds which help to create beautiful and perfect atmospheres. Take for instance the soundtrack of "Bladerunner". Do you really think that Williams' orchestral sound can compare to Vangelis' magic? Do you think that Bladerunner would be the same with another more classical music?. NO. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. On the other hand, Zimmer has proved to be quite versatile, in that he has successfully used orchestras in scores like "Thin Red Line". And what a heavenly and superb music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Williams should feel ashamed, because his score for "Saving Private Ryan" is quite mediocre, and by no means can be compared to Zimmer's score. What a shame!! Williams has been defeated using his OWN weapons, his own style. Ja,ja,ja,ja,ja,ja. On the contrary, it would be funny to see whay kind of music would Williams have composed for, for instance, "Beyond Rangoon" or the superb "The Prince of Egypt". I'm not saying that Williams' music is shit. No, no. What I want people like Melomaniac to understand is that Zimmer is THE BEST, THE ONLY GENIUS IN FILM MUSIC. All of the others are just disciples.
Well, again thank you for your support,I do also agree with your words.
bye


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David Pintado
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ugly joe

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ugly joe
Re: Williams go home   Sunday, January 20, 2002 (12:42 a.m.) 

I believe another film composer, James Horner, also implemented synthesizers whithin his earlier scores. As for Hans Zimmer, I haven't really found any outstanding, powerful music from him. Most of it sounds the same and the only score that I really appreciated was that of his Hannibal score. The Rock, Backdraft and Gladiator all sound so similar, and they are somewhat dulled through the film. Attacking Williams like he was some sort of joke is indeed a bold attempt to prove a point. You have to remember that Williams has created far many more memorable scores that are pleasing to the ear as well as well as being complex at times. He is almost the epiphany of film music to the modern listener. Yes, the sound of Williams may seems dated, but if you look at the many milestones he has created, you might realize that there is a reason people like him so much.

I'm not saying that I think Williams is the greatest film composer. I actually like Horner's music more, but I do think he deserves some sort of honorable credit. Saying he's old and outdated isn't necessarily a bad thing. I rediscovered music from Bernard Herrmann, who wrote music for Alfred Hitchcock's greatest films, and the music is purely amazing. There are many more composers out there than just the one. Try and see...er.. hear I mean. You might find many others you will like.

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ugly joe
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  In Response to:
David Pintado

  Responses to this Comment:
David Pintado
juju-bean
Re: Williams go home   Sunday, January 20, 2002 (8:56 a.m.) 

> Obviously, you have not listened to many scores by Horner; otherwise, you would have realised, as well as me, that Horner's use of synths has no real depth. Indeed, any child would do the same with a Korg or Moog in his/her arms. I am not criticizing Horner's music. Horner has composed some of the MOST WONDERFUL, PRECIOUS, BEAUTIFUL, and AMAZING scores for fantastic films, such as "Willow", "Krull", etc. However, the composer who has succeeded in incorporating synths and electronics in film music is nobody but Hans Zimmer. You just listen to "Beyond Rangoon", "The Lion King", or "The Prince of Egypt". You say that you haven't found anything outstanding in his music?. Well, mr. Pintado, WHAT HAVE YOU LISTENED OF ZIMMER?. If you had listened to half the works I have, you would not have said that. There is NOTHING more powerful than Zimmer's music for THE PEACEMAKER, for instance. Neither Williams, nor Horner, nor Barry, has produced such an excellent action music.
you say that most of Zimmer's music sounds the same?. No, Mr. Pintado, it is SUPERMAN, STAR WARS, INDIANA JONES, etc, etc, etc... that DO SOUND THE SAME. Williams is indeed a maestro in utilizing the same melody, with slight variations, to create thousands of similar, commercial scores. I'm not saying that his music is mediocre. He has created masterpieces like "SCHLINDLER'S LIST", "HOOK"... also, his "Hymn of the fallen", for "SAVING PRIVATE RYAN", is gorgeous. However, I'm really fed up with critics, who do always praise William's scores, even when those scores are crap (as in the case of "JURASSIC PARK", "ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE", "HARRY POTTER"), just because it is Williams that has composed that music, whereas Zimmer's music is always criticized. Williams' style is old-fashioned, and if Zimmer always sounds the same, do does Williams. Zimmer, however, has provided film music with new horizons and new sounds. MORE THAN ANY COMPOSER. You say that The Rock, Backdraft and Gladiator sound similar. Well, neither The Rock nor Bacdraft stand as Zimmer's best scores. However, Gladiator is a masterpiece from its beginning up to its end, and you should recognize it, if you are being objetive. Listen to the main theme of "Superman", "Star wars" and "Indiana Jones". These do indeed sound similar. Also, Williams is good at composing commercial melodies without any real depth.I'm not attacking Williams because I don't like him, or because I think he's stupid. No, what I want you all to see is that Williams is no god, so PLEASE, STOP WORSHIPPING HIM AS IF HE WERE THE ONLY FILM MUSIC COMPOSER, THE GOD OF GODS!!!!!. Oh, my lord... You say that Williams has created far more memorable scores? Which are they? "E.T."? "SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET"? "HOME ALONE"?. Please, listen to "THE PRINCE OF EGYPT", "THE THIN RED LINE", and "BEYOND RANGOON", and just COMPARE. "SAVING PRIVATE RYAN" sounds weak, helpless, when compared to "THIN RED LINE".THAT IS COMPLEX MUSIC.
Yes, I agree that Williams has created many milestones (I will not make any comment about the quality of those "many milestones"), but so has Zimmer.
I'm not trying to say "FORGET WILLIAMS. ALL HIS MUSIC IS CRAP". No one who is sensitive or who likes music would say that. Rather, what I want to say is "WILLIAMS IS NOT THE BEST FILM MUSIC COMPOSER. THERE ARE MANY OTHER COMPOSERS WHO ARE AS GOOD, OR EVEN MUCH BETTER THAN WILLIAMS. AND ONE OF THEM IS ZIMMER". Of course, I do also like Barry, Trevor Jones, Danny Elfman, Howard Shore (by the way, his music for "The Lord of the Rings" is gorgeous!), James Newton Howard, Basil Poledouris, etc, etc, etc...so, to sum up, I know that "there are many composers out there" because I have listened to thousands of scores. And there are many other composers that I do like. So please, don't talk to me as if I had never listened to any other composer apart from Zimmer.

P.D.
By the way, Bernard Herrmann is good, but not outstanding.


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David Pintado
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ugly joe

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ugly joe
Re: Williams go home   Tuesday, January 22, 2002 (7:50 p.m.) 

Well, UGLY JOE, thanks for referring to me like I'm some sort of maniacal IDIOT who doesn't have the slightest thought of what he talks about. NO offense, whatsoever, but has it occured to you that perhaps film music is all I really listen to? Of course not! Everyone listens to the radio, right? Well, maybe not. So when I'm being put down about how LITTLE I know about film music, I take huge offense. Why? Well, maybe it's because I don't fit on anyone's side at all? Maybe, maybe I can't relate to a single bloody fool out there, and that all I can do is post messages on this blasted site, trying to find some sort of consolation, but no, no, no. I'm simply told off as being simple minded. SIMPLE MINDED! Why, maybe I should shut down even my access to speaking on the net, seen as I don't seem to make sense to ANYONE.

That's wonderful that you find Zimmer so spectacular and that, of course, you don't want to say how bad Williams is as you said, although you repeatedly say how lousy and repetetive and commerical he is. That's great, that's wonderful! BUT WHY THE HELL DID YOU HAVE TO COME TO THE BLOODY A.I. PAGE TO SAY IT??? Are you trying to infiltrate everything related to Williams to simply rant about Zimmer, hoping to convert them into Zimmer fans?? Perhaps you are a jehovah's witness! Ah, it makes sense now! Go door to door and convert! Good grief, I know Williams sounds commercial. I tried explaining to my friend that LOTR was great, but she just said there wasn't anything recognizable that you could even hum to. Whatever, guess no one really thinks I know what I talk about, and I suppose you are going to contradict everything I just said and point everyone to the "he's crazy" message. Well, fine. But whatever you do, DO NOT tell me how inferior and incapable I am of film music! It is the one thing I prize myself on what I know within people I know, and if you take that away from me, then it's just the same as physically harming me. So, go away!

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ugly joe
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  In Response to:
David Pintado

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David Pintado
Re: Williams go home   Wednesday, January 23, 2002 (4:00 a.m.) 

Well, Mr. Pintado, I can see that you have interpreted my words in quite a curious way. First of all, I have NOT referred to you like a maniacal idiot, so if you finf the exact passage of my review where I am supposed to have said that, please, let me know. I will not accept, BY NO MEANS,any accusations of that kind, simply because I did NOT mean to insult or offend anyone. Those words of you are what YOU have interpreted, and NOT what I did mean to say at all. So be careful with wrong interpretations. All I wanted to say is that, if film music is all you listen to, well, so do I. Therefore, don't write to me that I should listen to more film music as if I was an IDIOT who has no idea of film music, because I have listened to thousands of scores. And I still do it. That's why it was I that felt offended when I received your first message. I know that you didn´t mean to offend me, either, so I'm sorry if I have offended you. But, again, what I did was to defend myself and express my opinions, which is what every person would have done in a democratic culture. I tried to make you understand that I don't agree with your opinions, and that my opinion is as VALID as yours, because every music lover has his / her own preferences. By the way, I DO NOT listen to the radio, NEITHER. I have NEVER said that you have no idea of film music. What I have said is that I know of film music as well as you, so don't try to give me any advice, nor convince me about how good Williams is, because I have DOZENS of scores by Williams. This doesn't mean that I don't like him, and that is the 20th time I say it. Simply, I don't understand why he is son much worshipped and praised, whereas other composers as good as Williams are more often than not criticized. If you feel offended by the fact that I express freely my opinion, that's YOUR PROBLEM, because, once again, I have never meant to offend you, simply I wanted to defend myself and say what I feel. By the way, where did I say that you are SIMPLE MINDED?. Again, YOUR interpretation. But please, don't shut down your access to speaking on the net, because this is a FORUM, in which everyone gives his / her own ideas, all of which are equally welcomed. I respect you as a music (especially as a film music) lover, so there is no need of arguing, because I FEEL that we agree, more than disagree, in many aspects. Whenever we don't agree, there is NO PROBLEM. Every one can express himself / herself freely, without offenses or insults.
With respect to Zimmer, I simply reacted that way because I DID NOT AGREE AT ALL with what you had said about him. There is nothing wrong with that. I simply stated that I laugh at those people that say "Zimmer is commercial and repetitive", because Williams is as commercial and repetitive as Zimmer. The problem is that many critics still think that only those musicians with a classical training like Williams deserve praise, whereas whenever someone like Zimmer DARES to introduce synths, then those critics attack him in an unfairly way. You said that you didn't find GLADIATOR interesting at all. Well, that's what I say of HARRY POTTER, A.I., and of most of Williams scores since SCHLINDLER'S LIST (one of his great masterpieces). When I criticize Williams, it's not because I don't like him, but rather because I think that most of the defects and vices attributed to Zimmer are also to be found in William's style.
And with regard to why I posted my message in the A.I. page, the answer is simple: I did it because many Williams fans (see Melomaniac) do THE SAME, posting their comments, which always attack Zimmer, in Zimmer's pages, like Gladiator's, or Pearl Harbor's. When I read such absurd critics in those pages, I thought that then I had the same right to post my attacks to Williams in pages like the one devoted to A.I. That is to say, I didn't begin that, I only repeated what some Williams' fans had already done. If you go to other William's pages, you won't find anything by me, simply because that is not my style. In fact, I have posted ver few comments criticizing Williams. Unfortunately, you read one of them. Therefore, I'm no Jehova's witness (MY GOD, I'M ONLY EXPRESSING MY OPINION, AND NOT OBLIGING ANYONE TO ACCEPT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Zimmer has already thousands of fans, as well as Williams, so there is no need of "converting" anyone!. And I remind you, by the way, that it was YOU that posted the message, which I received via e-mail, in which you suggested me to listen to other things. So if someone has gone "door to door" and tried to "convert", this is YOU. And not get offended, because I am only defending myself.
I am not in the mood of contradicting everything you say, because I know (everyone knows)that you are right in many things. For example, I don't like very much "The Rock", and "Backdraft", as far as I am concerned, is one of the worst scores by Zimmer, in my opinion.
So, again, since I have NEVER accused you of being inferior and incapable of film music (indeed, these words are yours, not mine), I don't have to sorry for that. But that's what you interpreted I didn't mean to. On the contrary, it is I THAT FELT OFFENDED by your message. I don't have to try and listen to anything, because I have listened to lots of scores, so please, don't think I am one of those people that listen to Mariah Carey and all those crap, one of those people that buy scores just because of the vocal song that, unfortunately, tends to be included in most soundtracks. I LOVE FILM MUSIC as well as you, although our musical preferences are slightly different.
So, once again, I hope that you will not feel any kind of offense right now, because that is not my intention. We are only talking about music. And when someone feels so strong emotions when listening to music, it is impossible not to be a little vehement or impetuous when giving our own opinions.
P.D.
Por cierto, tu inglés es magnífico. Como seas español, estamos haciendo el tonto, porque yo también lo soy.


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David Pintado
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  In Response to:
ugly joe

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ugly joe
Re: Williams go home   Wednesday, January 23, 2002 (4:55 a.m.) 

Look, I'm really sorry I insulted you. I wrote that message much earlier, and I'm realizing now that I shamelessly did so to make myself feel better (which it obviously didn't). I've just been pretty emotional lately, for reasons I do not know, and I was just listening to the A.I. score, something that really touched me when I saw the film. When I saw the post, I, for some reason or another, felt angry and wanted to retaliate, trying to save something I appreciated before I felt like I lost eveything. Been going through some tough times, and have really been alienated. At that point, it all retreats to my music, and thus, I became overwhelmed. (I suppose your thinking that this guy needs a shrink, heheh)

But after reading this all through, I am deeply sorry to offend you. These times when we go on these wild outburts to make ourselves feel better just seems so selfish and unintelligent. I should have just stated what I like/dislike, and left it at that, like I usually do. Wow, I'm starting to really feel bad. You know it's so odd how we want to have support, yet throw it away in our eager stupidity. Ah, all I can say is that I sincerely apologize for. You're actually really right. You're someone who does love film music. I've been complaining for a while how no one really can relate to me, and here I insult you, one who's listened to a whole lot of film music. Makes me want to laugh at myself and cry at the same time. Bah! Again, I apologize and I'm grateful for your honesty, and your clear cut presentation of the argument!

-David

As for your post script, it's because I do not know Spanish. =) I live in California. My father was from Mexico, and my mother is from England. My father left when me when I was 10 and never taught us Spanish, due to domestic problems. Thanks a lot for the consideration. I don't think anyone has spoken to me in Spanish before on the net...


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ugly joe
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David Pintado
Re: Williams go home   Thursday, January 24, 2002 (5:33 a.m.) 

You don't have to sorry, because I know what you mean. I have experienced myself similar emotions before, so I understand what you say. I shouldn't have written those things, or perhaps I should have done it in a different way so that you could not feel offended. It was not my intention, really. My problem is that when I'm talking about music, I tend to express myself in a very stubborn and radical, almost inappropriate, way. But the reason of that is my love of music. So I'm sorry, again. Really, A.I. has a beautiful main theme (on piano), although I don't like very much the rest of the score. I think that we both feel the same things when we listen to music, which is the most important thing in my life, a sort of catharsis that relieves me when I don't feel well emotionally. If everyone listened to this music, wars would not exist at all, and people would be more civilized. So don't feel bad, nor apologize, because there is nothing to apologize for. Again, thank you for your comments and for reminding me that I should not be so hard with Williams' music, inasmuch as many people love his music as much as I love Zimmer and other people's music!
Luis

P.D.
I should have realized that you are not Spanish, because no Spanish person(as far as I know: I've studied English philology, and I teach English phonetics at the University of Seville) would master English in that way. But your name and family name are quite Spanish-like, that's why I thought that perhaps you are Spanish, so I asked to myself: why are we writing to each other in English if we both are Spanish? But when I read one of your messages, I realized that your English was too perfect for it to belong to a non native speaker!!



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juju-bean
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  In Response to:
ugly joe

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ugly joe
Re: Williams go home   Monday, February 25, 2002 (2:21 p.m.) 

ROFL, I don't know... ugly joe, i must say *your opinion* has got to be the complete opposite of mine. I find many of Zimmer's scores lacking. Thin Red Line was perfect... and Gladiator was very very good... i've also said before that i like As Good As It Gets, (works very well with the film). *There are others as well. You however, I am convinced, are not looking at how the score works in the film, as opposed to how it sounds on album.

Frankly, you are very opinionated, i mean what the hell is this: "Zimmer is THE BEST, THE ONLY GENIUS IN FILM MUSIC. All of the others are just disciples"?? How about all the genius's who inspired Zimmer... to which i think he is no comparison... These people, like Bernard Herrmann who you ludicrously slandor... ("not outstanding" huh?) These guys were some of the first to put music to film... They were originators. They were Genius. Yet you act like God's gift to the film scoring stage is Hans Zimmer, who writes "action music superbly". Oh, my! Ok, he has been innovative, he was the first composer to really use synthetics and orchestra effectively... and we now see composers using more synthetics effectively, probably because of zimmer. But, lots of his music seems more dependent on the synthetics than they should be. What i think to be Zimmer's best score is The Thin Red Line, and that used quite a bit less of that "Zimmer sound" that people like so much. Just tell me what is so great about the average zimmer music?

I have seen him describe some great emotions with his music... But, i don't see him telling stories with many of his scores. Of course they do support the film, but these are not artistic scores. We instead get to hear scores of his that are pounding out rhythms to ppl hacking away at each other, or blaring sound of machine gun fire. Guess what? Half of these scenes in movies like: The Rock, probably do not even need score... A movie can carry itself... it does not always need score... this makes Zimmer's music in a movie like that only seem less effective. I've read interviews with Zimmer... and frankly he seems to think almost the same way. I have never heard anything of his that is more complex than Williams music.

And you are QUITE wrong, about critics thinking only classical-like music is good for film... Critics usually look at how the score works within the film. Zimmer scores scenes and i could sit and listen to the music and think of over a dozen different action scenes that he has scored... However if you listen to cues from other "better scores" they might represent the scene with something particular. I've used an example of john williams from the indiana jones and the last crusade: he scores an action (exciting) scene of a boat chase through venice... now: he doesn't just toss a bunch of pounding rhythms and chords that lead to a gothic battle sound... no, he uses a bright almost happy, adventurous theme... yet he still hits off of many things in the scene. You can hear, im not sure if it is brass, or actually a fog horn of some sort representing the big ships they are passing between. Then, when the 'bad guys' get out their gun and start shooting at our hero's boat the music suddenly changes to represent the use of the weapon, there is a rhythm played with a snare (military sounding). Then as the boat is getting sucked towards the big propeller williams uses the orchestra to imitate the propeller. How can 10 minutes of zimmer's synth rhythms compare in uniqueness to this? I can hear Zimmer's chords, where they are going almost before they get there. Williams on the other hand uses polyphonic textures in much of his music, and great complex rhythm in many of his cues. His orchestrations are brilliant, and they are HIS orchestrations. He has a wide range of dynamics, and style... he can write suspense and he can write childishly playful. I do not think you should belittle williams. He is truely a distinguished film composer.

Oh, But, no, you don't stop there, you continue on and say that everyone else is just a disciple of Zimmer. I doubt Zimmer would agree with you. I doubt he is that big headed. I know he has shown respect for Morricone, and others. He said in an interview, if i recall correctly, that while in school he was always doing more "artsy" projects, and he always wanted to be like john williams and write great action music.(interview: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/features/zimmer.asp) I guess he was just being modest? After all, he's the best film composer... DOH! He scores a certain type of movie, and i can't altogether say i am impressed with that certain type of movie... He has written some very exceptional scores, i'm not arguing that, i just think you have made some terribly biased statements. Nothing he has written this year is worthy of an oscar i think... closest would be hannibal... and maybe it shouldve gotten a nod, and been nominated. I admit the academy does favor certain things; i think it is all political.
But if a score were to be nominated over the picks made this year, i think it should be elliot goldenthal's "innovative" score for Final Fantasy. I say innovative because he is in some respects also an innovator, he has used many horrifically wonderful sounds with the orchestra to express things in the film :P Now this is not always appropriate, but in FF film it fit perfectly.

Anyway, i doubt this will convince you to change your opinion, but i say for the sake of the art... of music... and of film... you concentrate more on the music in the film. Listen to how the music works with the film to become one texture. Also, about Zimmer's style, I would think it is harder and more effective to compose an orchestra playing a complex rhythm than it is to create a rhythm with synthetic percussion. Just because it is new and sounds cool doesn't mean it is better...

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ugly joe
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juju-bean

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juju-bean
Re: Williams go home   Wednesday, February 27, 2002 (5:08 a.m.) 

O.k., let's start again.
Maybe it is time to make clear some points, so that people will no longer misundertand my words. First of all, the fact that Zimmer is my favourite film composer does not necessarily mean that he is the ULTIMATE GOD in film music. Those words of mine were just a response to someone (whose name I don't remember)who posted at this page that Williams was the only god in soundtracks. Well, he thought that, and I think that it is Zimmer, and not Williams, that is a genius. Obviously, I'm not such a fool so as to think that I'm right. Neither my opinion, nor the other person's are right. I mean, there is no such a thing as a GOD in film music. That is extremely presumptuous. However, there are indeed many great composers, all of whom deserve the same credit and admiration on the part of those people who love MUSIC. Williams is certainly one of them, but so is Zimmer. I mean, and I would like to make it clear for the umpteenth time: I'm not saying that Zimmer is GOD. No person is god. What I try to mean is that Zimmer is as good as Williams, that Williams is unfairly overrated most of the times by critics, whereas Zimmer is usually criticized on rather unfair grounds. That said, I hope nobody will understand again that thing about gods and princes of the universe in film music.
Well, now let's go to the important thing. It is obvious that your opinion is quite different to mine. Well, I have no problem about it. But please, don't think that you are the one who is right, and the one who has the right to teach us, poor ignorant people, about what good action film music should be, because I have listened to thousands of scores, so I think I have a little idea about what film music is or should be. I agree with you about your comments on The Thin Red Line (you will agree with me, if you have common sense, in that it is far superior to the mediocre Saving Private Ryan.) and Gladiator. However, you say that I'm not looking at how the score works in the film, as opposed to how it sounds on the album. I mean, shit, what are you talking about?Do you really believe I'm that stupid?. Damn, do you really think that I just listen to the music in the album and not analyze it in the film? My good god. Maybe you don't know that, but one of the reasons why I love Zimmer's music is precisely because it helps to highlitght the different emotions in the film in a gorgeous way. You don't agree?. Well, I don't care, really, because music is quite a subjective art, and nobody has the ultimate truth about it. You say I'm very opinionated?. Well, so are you, when you talk about the supposed excellences of Mr. Williams' music. Zimmer's music is an important part in any film. Look, the only reason why I decided to see Pearl Harbor was the music. And in the end, the music was the only beautiful thing in that piece of crap of a film. There are lots of mediocre films whose only appealing aspect is Zimmer's music. Take Broken Arrow, or The Rock. Zimmer is a genius in conveying different emotions through his music, and it is obvious that films such as The Lion King, The Prince of Egypt, Hannibal or Gladiator would not be the same without Mr. Zimmer's music. In this sense, you are UTTERLY WRONG. Or perhaps your prejudices against Zimmer's music make you unable to realize it. What a pitty. So don't say that, because when I analyze any given soundtrack, I anallyze it from two different perspectives:1) its relation with the film, as a whole, that is, how the music sounds in the film; 2) how the music sounds in the album, without the support of images. And so far, I have not come across with a soundtrack by Zimmer which does not help to convey in a gorgeous way, the different emotions of the film. I mean, you don't need to be a fan of Williams in order to be sensitive, in order to feel music.
Once again, I have to repeat it again so that no one will bother me with that crap again: O.K. when I said Zimmer is the best, genius...etc, etc... it was simply an exaggerated response to an exaggerated comment by one of Williams' disciples, according to whom Williams was a sort of Alpha and Omega in film music. I'm not that fool so as not to realize that Williams has composed many excelent soundtracks. But so has Zimmer. Don't forget that. Obviously, Zimmer was inspired by many other people. Even Williams was inspired by other people. Obviuosly, Zimmer inspiration did not come from the Holy Spirit, damn!. But Zimmer has inspired nowadays much more people than Williams. Why?. Well, Zimmer's style is innovative, which is something that Williams will never be. You do also seem to be very opinionated in your opinions about synthesized music as opposed to orchestral music. Well, once again that's YOUR opinion, so don't think that you are the one who posseses the ultimate truth, because you don't. No one does. I simply post my opinions, that's all. They are good for me and for many other people as well, but it is no dogma. I don't want to be any kind of Jehovah's witness, trying to convert people, as many of the people who have responded my comments tried to do. I'm no fool, so don't treat me as a fool. Once again, Bernard Hermann is good, but I have not found anything that is really outstanding by him. Yes, his compositions for Hitchcock's masterpieces "Psycho", "D'entre les mortes" are good, but his style is nothing special for me. I like synths and electronic arrangements, when the person who composes music with these instruments has talent, sensibility and good taste. Vangelis is one of them. Zimmer is another one. And the very fact that people like Herrmann were originators, as you say, does NOT mean that their music is outstanding, or unsurpassed, no, my dear sir.By no means. That's another prejudice. As you can see, all of us are equally prejudiced. Yes, William's contribution to film music is undeniable, it is obvious. But that does not mean that Williams is a sort of god who can never be matched by any other person (unless he / she uses his same, orchestral style).
I'm glad to see that you recognize that Zimmer is innovative in his unique blend of electronics and orchestra in film music. Now there are many other people who imitate Zimmer's style but with far less oustanding results: take the mediocre Trevor Rabin, Harry Gregson-Williams, the promising Nick Glennie-Smith... but none of them matches Zimmer when havig to composed moving, beautiful melodies for films. Nowadays, the only musician with a similar style that matches (and maybe surpasess)Zimmer is Vangelis, one of the GREATEST COMPOSERS OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY. Far better, far more innovative, far more creative, far...etc, etc, etc... than Herrmann, Williams, etc, etc.
That is funny: you say that lots of Zimmer's music seems more dependent on synths than thay should be. Oh, what a clever and wise remark!. Again, THAT'S YOUR OPINION, so please, don't think that you have said something sensible because you haven't. I have the impression that you have not listened to many Zimmer's scores. If you had, you would not say that. Have you listened to Beyond Rangoon?. There he introduces ethnic elements which, together with orchestrations,are the most important elements in the soundtrack. Likewise, in The Thin Red Line, Hannibal or Gladiator synths do never substitute orchestrations, because both elements are always balanced. Obviously, when we talk about an action movie, maybe electronics are more appropriate. It depends on your preferences, on the type of movie. Can you imagine a film like Broken Arrow with Williams' music? Oh, my god, no!. I know that you are not fond of electronics. Well, I'm not fond of William's style. Despite that, I recognize that soundtracks like Hook or Schlindler's List, to name a few, are UNSURPASSED, EXTREMELY BEAUTIFUL MASTERPIECES. But so are The Prince of Egypt, The Thin Red Line, Beyond Rangoon, etc. Materpieces are to be found in almost any great composer.
You say that The Thin Red Line is his best score (it is not his best score: it is ONE of his best scores) because he used quite a bit less of his "Zimmer sound". Once again, you seem to think that Zimmer's music= lots of electronics and synths. No that way. Listen to Beyond Rangoon, listen to The Peacemaker, which is, in my opinion, some of THE BEST ACTION MUSIC EVER COMPOSED. And in that soundtrack, as opposed to The Rock (which, I remind you, was not composed by Zimmer exclusively. He composed the best theme of the soundtrack. The rest of this disappointing soundtrack was composed by Nick Glennie-Smith), Broken Arrow or Crimson Tide, the sounds of the orchestra soar with a strenght and power as naver before, enhanced by the subtle use of synths. The action music of The Peacemaker is simply GLORIOUS. Recently I bought the soundtrack of Deep Rising, by Jerry Goldsmith. The action music in that film is much more noisy than any Zimmer's music. So zimmer' music is much more than electronics, much more than action music. Zimmer has scored dramas, action films, thrillers, comedies... and the results are most often astonishing. So that is what is so great about the average Zimmer music. He can score any kind of film with gorgeous results. Obviously not all his scores are that good. But this does also apply to Mr. Williams. Is there any one who thinks that the music of Harry Potter is acceptable?. Williams does the same as he has been doing the last years but this time without talent, without anything. No imaginative, childish, stupid, crap. So what is so great about the average Williams music???
In order to judge Zimmer's music fairly, you should have listened to works like Point of no Return, The Lion King, Beyond Rangoon, The Prince of Egypt, The Thin Red Line, The Peacemaker, Gladiator, etc, etc. If you have already done it, and still you don't appreciate the excellences of his music, then there is something wrong with you. As for myself, I have listened to dozens of Williams' scores and I recognize that some of them are gorgeous. So I have no problem with that. Problems come when someone tries to "guide me into the subtle dimensions of good film music" as if I have never listened to a fucking score and I had no fucking idea about it.
You don't see Zimmer telling stories with many of his scores?. Well, what stories does William tell with Jurassic Park, Home Alone, Harry Potter, Artificial Intelligence?. Maybe I'm so ignorant that I can see that. Or maybe I have good taste so as to reject listenig to that huge crap. Every composer has his / her good and bad works. Not only Zimmer. Don't forget that. You say that Zimmer's scores are not ARTISTIC???????????????????????????????????
Oh, my god, that's enough for me!. Fucking shit, how many scores have you listened? AreThe Thin Red Line, The Prince of Egypt, Beyond Rangoon not artistic?. There is a semantic problem here. What's your notion of "artistic"?. I suppose Home Alone is very artistic, isn't it?. Oh, my god.
You say that instead of "artistic scores" what you get are full of rhythms, blaring sounds of machine gun fire (?????????????). Maybe you have only listened to action scores; otherwise I don't understand this. Obviously, if you buy the score of Broken Arrow or The Rock, damn, don't expect to find fucking Mozart-like music, because that is not what the film requires. Do you see? Zimmer's music suits to any film. And with regard with your comments on the Rock. It is no fair to suggest that it does not need music. If so, Jurassic Park doesn't, either. And if you were fair, you would agree with me in that the music that is heard at the beginnig of the film is superb. Yes, when you listen to the album, there's excesive noise. But whenever that gorgeous theme sounds, that is really the APOTHEOSIS!. Just compare it with the stupid, empty main theme of Superman or Indiana JOnes. Oh my god, comparisons are odious. So if you think that Zimmer's music for the Rock is not effective, that's your problem, because you don't know what you are talking about. You say you have read in interviews that Zimmer "seems" to think almost the same. "Seems"?.Ah, those funny interpretations of yours. Maybe the role of the music in The Rock is not the same as the role of music in The Thin Red Line, maybe it is not so important. But Zimmer's effort is to be appreciated by those who love film music.
And next you say the funniest joke I have ever read: Zimmer's music is not as complex as William's. HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA.
Tell me, please, what do you mean when you say "complex". What is the fucking complexity of Harry Potter?What's the complexity of themes like Superman, Indiana Jones or Home alone. Do you really think that they are more complex than Beyond Rangoon, for example. If so, our discussions are useless. You have no remedy at all.
You say critics look at how the score works within the film. Well, so do I. But this has one problem, and I'm sure you will agree with me in that. Many times the selection of the music in the album has little to do with what you listen to in the film. Many times, on the other hand, the effort of the composer is better appreciated in the album than in the film, not because of the music itself, but because of the film. Many times films are so full of noises and dialogues that it is not possible at all to pay attention to the film and the music at the same time. So critics should also pay attention to the music as heard in the album, and be FAIR. Most of the criticisms I've read against Zimmer's music could be also applied to Williams'. Williams is not better than Zimmer. By no means. Of course, I don't want to say the opposite, which is not true, neither.
I have listened to that theme of Indiana JOnes and the Last Crusade, and, as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing special. Typical orchestral action music by Willimas. By no means outstanding. Do you want superb action music?. Then what you should listen to is the fourhtcue from The Peacemaker, titled Chase. 17 minutes of non stop, breath-taking music, in which Zimmer combines unsurpassed (how difficult it is to move anyone with rhythms and action music, but Zimmer succeeds in doing that as any other composer has ever), tremendously rich rhythms with glorious melodies. Williams would never create such rhythms, because he can't. Ah, you don't like action music?. Well, then go to the third cue, titled Sarajevo. That's is moving, that is lyrical, poestic, beautiful.
I don't expect you to realize to what extent the action music of The Peacemaker has a real depth and complexity which that theme of yours from Indiana Jones would never have the opportunity to enjoy of. Synth rhythms just surpass that. Their styles are different, but I prefer Zimmer's, which does not mean that he is better. But, please, don't try to convice me of something which is so relative and subjective. I would like to see what Williams would do if he had to work with synths. HA. Zimmer did also use polyphonic textures in some of his works, his rhythms are much richer and more complex, his orchestrations are not as brilliant as Williams' but... who wants that? What I want is a different thing. Zimmer does not need to copy Williams' style, because zimmer has his own, personal style, which is something which ver few composers nowadays can be proud of. And, in his domain, he has proved to be the best one, as Williams in his.You don't like Zimmer's style. That's good. But that doesn't mean that you are right and I'm wrong. If you really think so, then your problem is very serious. Zimmer can also write suspense, and any other thing you may think of. Zimmer is also truly a distinguished film composer. If you don't see that, it is because you are so excesively prejudiced that you can see things as they really are. So, I don't belittle Williams, I just try to be fair and recognize the good and bad points of everyone. It is you who should not belittle Zimmer.
Zimmer is no god, no ultimate master. But likewise, neither Williams is. I simply admire Zimmer's music, he's made me feel many different things with his music, that's why I'm eternally indebted to him for that. I dont' have the intention to clash with Williams' fans because every composer is good. What I will not accept is that people like you try to convince me about things subjective. From my own point of view, Zimmer is one of the best composers ever, and I prefer his style over Williams', that's clear. If you cannot accept that, then go and learn tolerance. And, please, forget that role of yours of literate, wise people who know everything about film music, because those ideas are shit. I have listened to thousands of scores, much more than what many of the people who e-mail me have in their lives, so don't assume the role of teacher, because perhaps yours should be that of the student!
It is good that Zimmer wanted, when he was beginnig, to be like Williams, not because of the quality of his music, but rather because of his priviledge position in the film music panorama. Fortunately, Zimmer has not just tried to COPY WILLIAMS and sound like him, but rather he has developped his own style, which means that his ideas and conceptions of action music have nothing to do with Williams'. Fortunately, he has done something which Williams did never do: create his own, innovative style and revolutionize the film music world.
Therefore, what I have to say is that if my statements are biased, so are yours. Don't you know that saying that orchestral action music like that in Indiana Jones is better and superior than synth action music is also an ENORMOUSLY BIASED STATEMENT, by any chance?. So both of us are equally biased, it seems. You say that nothing of what Zimmer has done this year is worthy of an oscar. I agree with that. But likewise, do you really think that Harry Potter deserves an oscar?. Oh, my god. However, I agree with you with regard to Final Fantasy score. It is excellent, maybe one of the best scores of the year,so far. Excellent. I agree with everything you have said about Final Fantasy score, which is in my opinion the best work by Goldenthal so far. I'm not excesively fond of Goldenthal's tyle (his Batman scores are very mediocre, if you compare them with Danny Elfman's, and he likes to introduce in his scores some horrible noises which are unbearable. The score of Final Fantasy, on the other hand, borders on perfection.
I likewise doubt that this has convinced you to cahnge your equally biased opinion, but that's not my intention, neither. I do listen to how the music works with the film, I have done it all my lfe, so you don't have to tell me something which is common sense. When you say that you think that it is harder and more effective to compose an orchestra playing a complex rhythm than it is to create a rhythm with synthetic percussion, that is because you have no idea of what using synths means. Many people think that composers using electroncs have no talent at all, because all the music is produced by machines, so you don't have to work or effort on it. Well, that is not true. When you direct an orchestra, as Williams does, he plays no instrument at all, he just guides and directs people, who are the ones who do indeed play the rhythm. On the other hand, using synths implies using keyboards, which you have to play, as well, and also being a sort of orchestra conductor, since synths are like orchestras with endless possibities. A good and talented musician will make great things with it, which is not an esay thing. If you think so, I would like to see you or Williams surrounded by keyboards and synthesizers and computers, and I would like to see how you manage to get something good out of that material. So that's another biased statement. And my answer is: don't underestimate synths and electronics if you have no idea about how to use them. Thank you.
It's time to look for new horizons in music, and synths will play an important part in that process, as they have already done it, thanks to people like Zimmer or Vangelis. It sounds cool, it is new, and it is great. Perhaps you still prefer orchestral, more traditional sounds. That's perfect. But that does not imply that synths are worse.
Deutaro

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juju-bean
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ugly joe
Re: Williams go home   Friday, March 1, 2002 (1:33 a.m.) 

I have no idea what using synthetics means? Actually, i do... i use my computer to write music. I use synthetic drum loops, just like zimmer, and sampled orchestral instruments. It IS difficult. I am working with what i have, and i lack the resources to own the equipment that zimmer owns, but yes, i put a creative effort out to writing music. I study music theory, composition, performance... and hope to make a career out of it. I respect film composers greatly, well most of em' (this includes zimmer of course :P). And i think it is unfair when you say that i have know idea what using synths means!
Oh, and refering to the oscars... no, i don't think zimmer has written anything oscar worthy this year... maybe hannibal shouldve gotten nominated. Yes, I think williams has written a good score for A.I.(We are on the A.I. forum not the Harry Potter one) and it deserved the nomination. So, if i had it my way the nominees for best score would be: FoTR, A.I., Final Fantasy, (i feel the best 3 scores of the year are these three) and I think FoTR should win, just cuz i thought it was fabulous. If not that FF... But FF wasn't even nominated and we will just see who they pick for the winner... I be mad if its Monsters Inc. :P heh heh
Anyway, I appologize about my statements that made you feel i was trying to convert you. It was not my purpose... you had stated: "Zimmer is THE BEST, THE ONLY GENIUS IN FILM MUSIC. All of the others are just disciples" - and whether you meant it or not, i did not know. So i retorted.
Also, artistically speaking: i was unfair. I think he has written some beautiful scores. But, I really don't see much behind scores like crimson tide, the rock (true this was a media ventures project), broken arrow, etc. Ok, writing music in itself is an art... however you have to agree there are degrees of art, if i were to paint a picture and compare the picture of my own to a painting of davinci's... i would definately realize there is a difference. Im not saying williams is davinci and my picture is zimmer. It could be the difference between Broken Arrow and Beyond Rangoon. You can argue the same thing about williams. Its just a difference in opinion thats all.
I disagree that Zimmer is the best, because i don't feel there is one... plus, i think there are other composers who are just as talented, maybe even moreso.

PS: Be it zimmer or williams... i love film music...

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Re: Williams go home   Friday, March 1, 2002 (2:49 a.m.) 

I'm sorry if I have offended you when I said that you had no idea of what using synths means. The point is that there is only one kind of music that I love as much as film music: new age music: Vangelis, Kitaro, Constance Demby, Raphael... they do all use, mainly, synthesizers when composing music, and so I love this kind of sounds, because I've been listening to them from my very childhood and they estimulate my imagination. Synths can also create sounds and atmospheres that are spiritually moving for me. Because of this love of mine for synths and keyboards, I loved it when I listened to a film music composer that actually dared use synths in film music. And I think he has managed to do that in an extraordinary way. That's why I love Zimmer's style and music, even though I do also like more traditional styles like Williams', Goldsmith's, Horner's, Poledouris', Jarre's (the father), etc, etc. All that music is great as well. Therefore, I apologize if I offended you, I didn't mean to do it.
I hope that The Lord of the Rings will win this year, because I think it is gorgeous. It's a pity that Final Fantasy has not been nominated, because it deserved it. Perhaps people from the Academy prefer more melodic and less innovative music, who knows...
I agree with you in that Monsters Inc, as all Disney scores (with the exception of The Lion King and Mulan)is crap. But, you know, Disney has a strong influence over the people of the Academy. Otherwise, it would not have received so many awards that unfairly.
As you have pointed out, we seem to have different preferences with regard to film music. That's great, because this would be a boring place to live if everyone thought the same and felt the same things about the same music. I like that people have their own preferences. That's natural.
Maybe there are out there people with more talent that Zimmer. But in film music, and in his synthesized style, I think he is the best one. And it would not be fair if we did not recognize that Zimmer has contributed enormously to film music with melodies that are moving, lyrical, and superb. Just as Williams.
People who love film music like you or me must recognize that almost all the great composers of film music are, to a certain extent, genius, since they have managed to make us feel when watching a movie. And that is really one of the most beautiful gifts we can receive.
Williams, Zimmer, Goldsmith... etc... Thank you a lot


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Re: Williams go home   Monday, March 31, 2008 (4:41 a.m.) 

> Dear Levente Benedek:
> Thank you very much for your support. I know that there are many people
> out there who know who is the greatest film composer ever (as opposed to
> that Melomaniac, who must be drunk). As you have pointed out, Zimmer is
> the only one innovator in film music. Before him, only the great Vangelis
> had managed to use successfully synthesizers in film music. Do you know
> what's the problem with critics?. They are sort of mummies who think that
> the best music ever is classical music, and who therefore think that only
> those composers who have a classical training and style can deliver us
> with truly master pieces. But this is an error. Synthesizers allow us to
> make use of a huge amount of different sounds which help to create
> beautiful and perfect atmospheres. Take for instance the soundtrack of
> "Bladerunner". Do you really think that Williams' orchestral
> sound can compare to Vangelis' magic? Do you think that Bladerunner would
> be the same with another more classical music?. NO. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. On
> the other hand, Zimmer has proved to be quite versatile, in that he has
> successfully used orchestras in scores like "Thin Red Line". And
> what a heavenly and superb music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Williams should feel
> ashamed, because his score for "Saving Private Ryan" is quite
> mediocre, and by no means can be compared to Zimmer's score. What a
> shame!! Williams has been defeated using his OWN weapons, his own style.
> Ja,ja,ja,ja,ja,ja. On the contrary, it would be funny to see whay kind of
> music would Williams have composed for, for instance, "Beyond
> Rangoon" or the superb "The Prince of Egypt". I'm not
> saying that Williams' music is [bleep!]. No, no. What I want people like
> Melomaniac to understand is that Zimmer is THE BEST, THE ONLY GENIUS IN
> FILM MUSIC. All of the others are just disciples.
> Well, again thank you for your support,I do also agree with your words.
> bye

"Zimmer is the BEST, THE ONLY GENIUS IN FILM MUSIC"-- HA HA HA Big Bull [bleep!]
Your ears are closed whenever you listen to both works of Zimmer and Williams.Hey buddy please open your ears and comment great composer Mr.Williams and Mr.Zimmer.

You both Joe and Benedek Stinks in one particular point that these both composers composing music for movies not for an wedding anniversary or any other military parade. You both should understand one thing that music composed according to situation in the movie not that simple. I do acknowledge Zimmer is a good composer but it is completely stupid to say that Zimmer is king of film music.
If you say so Zimmer is KING OF FILM MUSIC
I say Williams is EMPEROR OF FILM MUSIC Why? Have Zimmer ever composed for concerts ? Please tell me



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Josh
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Re: Williams go home   Wednesday, September 19, 2001 (8:04 p.m.) 

> Dear ugly joe. I understand yoe very much. I'm a very very big fan of
> Zimmer, and I know that the Academy does't like him very much and of
> course the critics. Why? Because he is an innovator. I know a lot of
> people in my school and they all say that Zimmer is the king.

Zimmer an "innovator?"

Sure he is...

Just like N'Sync.

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Levente Benedek
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Re: Williams go home   Thursday, October 11, 2001 (10:00 a.m.) 

> Zimmer an "innovator?"

> Sure he is...

> Just like N'Sync.

He is an innovator of comparing CHOIR, SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA AND SYNTETISERS. If you know why is N'Sync an innovator, tell me ******.
P.S.:Laugh on your self.

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ugly joe
Re: Dear ugly joe...   Friday, September 14, 2001 (9:15 a.m.) 

> I'm really fed up with William's style of music. However,most critics seem
> to prefer his anachronic and old-fashioned style over great MAESTRO Hans
> Zimmer. Zimmer is the best film composer, you silly people!!!

When I first saw your letter I knew that you have read my letters for Melomaniac. And I'm sure that you were as mad as me when you saw it. I don't think that Melomaniac knows any music from Hans Zimmer or any music that is not from John Williams. I have almost 30 music from Zimmer and I have to say there are some music wich is much and much better than Williams score. In fact Zimmer write much (again) better action music and he is the one who made the kind of music: synthetisers together whit symphonic orchestra.
Please tell me about your Zimmer's music. Why do you love them, which is the best and why is it better than the OLD Williams.

Thank you: Levente Benedek

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Re: Dear ugly joe...   Sunday, October 7, 2001 (8:44 a.m.) 

Dear Levente,
in fact I've listened to most of Zimmer's scores, and I think that some of them are really masterpieces: "The Thin Red Line", "The Prince of Egypt", "Beyond Rangoon" and, why not?, "The Peacemaker" stand among my very best. I think that his music has an evocative power that William's lacks.

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Re: Dear ugly joe...   Sunday, October 7, 2001 (8:48 a.m.) 

Please, read my comment "Why is Pearl Harbor being underestimated" in the reviews of the Pearl Harbor soundtrack. There you will find a more extensive insight of my opinions about Zimmer's music. My real name is Luis F. Rodriguez

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Re: Dear ugly joe...   Monday, October 8, 2001 (5:28 a.m.) 

> Please, read my comment "Why is Pearl Harbor being
> underestimated" in the reviews of the Pearl Harbor soundtrack. There
> you will find a more extensive insight of my opinions about Zimmer's
> music. My real name is Luis F. Rodriguez

You wont believe but I'm the one who answerd for your comment in the review of the Pearl Harbour. The names don't mach because one of my school friend used my computer and I had forgotten to change the names. My name is Levente Benedek as you read and I live in HUNGARY. And as you also read I'm a Hans Zimmer fan.Please tell me more about you.


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