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Comments about the soundtrack for Batman Begins (Hans Zimmer/James Newton Howard)
Batman Begins Score

Ethan
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  Responses to this Comment:
Ivan orozco
Kiddo
Batman Begins Score   Saturday, January 14, 2006 (1:10 a.m.) 

It is a shame that Danny Elfman was unable to write the score for this movie. But on the other hand, we got to see a far more experienced and better composer take the wheel. Hans Zimmer's work throughout the years can be seen as a legendary achievement in movie music history. Zimmer cleary has an originality that can not be challenged as seen in movies like "Gladiator" and "King Arthur" etc. Hans Zimmer has a way of completely defining the human spirit with a lot of his work. With Batman Begins, Zimmer changes into a darker mood than usual. This gives the movie a felling of newness and modern style. It is cleary a score that can flow with the picture as usual with Hans Zimmer. Anyone who thinks Hans Zimmer has failed at recreating Batman to the modern tone of filmaking is wrong. Zimmer instead gives the audience a feeling of interest. It keeps them waiting for what is yet to come. Danny Elfman did not invent anything with the first few batman scores. He simply used a method of switching from major to minor on and off and vice versa. This can be seen in a different, more powerful form with Batman Begins. Batman Begins is a great movie with a great score, deal with it, and get over Danny Elfman.

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Ivan orozco
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  In Response to:
Ethan

  Responses to this Comment:
Ethan Grover
Ken
Andrew Edahl
Re: Batman Begins Score   Thursday, January 19, 2006 (2:42 p.m.) 

> It is a shame that Danny Elfman was unable to write the score for this
> movie. But on the other hand, we got to see a far more experienced and
> better composer take the wheel. Hans Zimmer's work throughout the years
> can be seen as a legendary achievement in movie music history. Zimmer
> cleary has an originality that can not be challenged as seen in movies
> like "Gladiator" and "King Arthur" etc. Hans Zimmer
> has a way of completely defining the human spirit with a lot of his work.
> With Batman Begins, Zimmer changes into a darker mood than usual. This
> gives the movie a felling of newness and modern style. It is cleary a
> score that can flow with the picture as usual with Hans Zimmer. Anyone who
> thinks Hans Zimmer has failed at recreating Batman to the modern tone of
> filmaking is wrong. Zimmer instead gives the audience a feeling of
> interest. It keeps them waiting for what is yet to come. Danny Elfman did
> not invent anything with the first few batman scores. He simply used a
> method of switching from major to minor on and off and vice versa. This
> can be seen in a different, more powerful form with Batman Begins. Batman
> Begins is a great movie with a great score, deal with it, and get over
> Danny Elfman.

i strongly agree with you


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Ethan Grover
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  In Response to:
Ivan orozco

  Responses to this Comment:
Jared
Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, January 21, 2006 (1:30 p.m.) 

> i strongly agree with you

It's great to hear that, I was afraid i would be bombarded with
a bunch of elfman fans


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Jared
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Ethan Grover

  Responses to this Comment:
Ivan orozco
Re: Batman Begins Score   Tuesday, January 24, 2006 (12:22 p.m.) 

> It's great to hear that, I was afraid i would be bombarded with
a
> bunch of elfman fans

Hey guys
I do adore this soundtrack, and enjoy the dark beauty of it. I see what all you guys were saying about it being "realistic" and stuff. I do however have to give some credit to a legend in film music, Danny Elfman. The man is a musical genious, "Edward Scissorhands anyone?" I love this new sound of Batman, but I don't think you can even compare it to Elfman. He is a great composer.

Anyone agree with this comment?

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Ivan orozco
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Jared

  Responses to this Comment:
GrowlyCubNZ
Re: Batman Begins Score   Tuesday, January 31, 2006 (4:02 p.m.) 

a

> Hey guys
I do adore this soundtrack, and enjoy the dark beauty of it.
> I see what all you guys were saying about it being "realistic"
> and stuff. I do however have to give some credit to a legend in film
> music, Danny Elfman. The man is a musical genious, "Edward
> Scissorhands anyone?" I love this new sound of Batman, but I don't
> think you can even compare it to Elfman. He is a great composer.

> Anyone agree with this comment?

true on what you said but not by a long shot fanboy

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GrowlyCubNZ
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  In Response to:
Ivan orozco

  Responses to this Comment:
Zimmerito
Re: Ivan and Zimmerito are Zimmer fanatics   Saturday, February 4, 2006 (1:24 a.m.) 

> a
I do adore this soundtrack, and enjoy the dark beauty of it.

> true on what you said but not by a long shot fanboy

Ivan,
you've got a bloody cheek calling this guy a 'fanboy' when your clearly in love with Hans Zimmer. A fanboy is someone who is so obsessed that can no longer reason objectively. Ken was right in what he said earlier, and I wish him well in his efforts to become a composer. I too understand his frustrations with the laziness off many of the guys getting paid top dollar. Zimmer is one of the laziest composers in the history of filmmaking.. he is joined by other lazy guys such as Klaus Badelt and many many of his other colleagues. Harrry-gregson Williams, a friend of Zimmer, had a flop on his hands with narnia and when the inevitable comparisons with Howard Shore's sterling work in Lord of the Rings arose, he totally dissed Shore. This arrogant attitude is prevalent amongst every single one of Zimmer's 'Elite'.
If there could be any criticism of Zimmer for being German (and there has been much comment of this in the thread comments for this review) it's that he's basically setting himself up as the Hitler of score composing. He's formed his 'elite' of henchmen who all think just like him and never question his style. And he's fired up many people with enthusiasm with nothing more than the power of his voice, just like Hitler.. that's a feat, however if you examine what the guy is actually saying.. (albeit with music not words) you will see it's equally as hollow. It's all a facade, a front. And guys like Zimmerito and Ivan are like the young boys who were brainwashed by Hitler into serving him without question. It's truly frightning what he's done. Zimmer has in the last 10 years swarmed across Hollywood with his cronies and acolytes, sweeping away what remains of decent scoremaking in the process. He's an arrogant, egotistical creep in my view. He's very self-indulgent and lazy in his work. I'm not saying others such as Horner or Williams aren't also repetitive.. cause they are... but Horner has been composing for 25yrs and Williams for at least 50! I hardly think you can say Zimmer has had enough time in which to exhaust himself.. and yet he has.. he's a one trick pony and at long last he's finally being revealed for the scourge he really is. I applaud Mr Clemmensen for his highly accurate, and biting review. As the very first comments on this review stated.. It was well overdue!

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Zimmerito
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GrowlyCubNZ
Re: Ivan and Zimmerito are Zimmer fanatics   Saturday, February 4, 2006 (2:59 a.m.) 

I do adore this soundtrack, and enjoy the dark beauty of it.

> Ivan,
you've got a bloody cheek calling this guy a 'fanboy' when your
> clearly in love with Hans Zimmer. A fanboy is someone who is so obsessed
> that can no longer reason objectively. Ken was right in what he said
> earlier, and I wish him well in his efforts to become a composer. I too
> understand his frustrations with the laziness off many of the guys getting
> paid top dollar. Zimmer is one of the laziest composers in the history of
> filmmaking.. he is joined by other lazy guys such as Klaus Badelt and many
> many of his other colleagues. Harrry-gregson Williams, a friend of Zimmer,
> had a flop on his hands with narnia and when the inevitable comparisons
> with Howard Shore's sterling work in Lord of the Rings arose, he totally
> dissed Shore. This arrogant attitude is prevalent amongst every single one
> of Zimmer's 'Elite'.
If there could be any criticism of Zimmer for
> being German (and there has been much comment of this in the thread
> comments for this review) it's that he's basically setting himself up as
> the Hitler of score composing. He's formed his 'elite' of henchmen who all
> think just like him and never question his style. And he's fired up many
> people with enthusiasm with nothing more than the power of his voice, just
> like Hitler.. that's a feat, however if you examine what the guy is
> actually saying.. (albeit with music not words) you will see it's equally
> as hollow. It's all a facade, a front. And guys like Zimmerito and Ivan
> are like the young boys who were brainwashed by Hitler into serving him
> without question. It's truly frightning what he's done. Zimmer has in the
> last 10 years swarmed across Hollywood with his cronies and acolytes,
> sweeping away what remains of decent scoremaking in the process. He's an
> arrogant, egotistical creep in my view. He's very self-indulgent and lazy
> in his work. I'm not saying others such as Horner or Williams aren't also
> repetitive.. cause they are... but Horner has been composing for 25yrs and
> Williams for at least 50! I hardly think you can say Zimmer has had enough
> time in which to exhaust himself.. and yet he has.. he's a one trick pony
> and at long last he's finally being revealed for the scourge he really is.
> I applaud Mr Clemmensen for his highly accurate, and biting review. As the
> very first comments on this review stated.. It was well overdue!

After days without writting here my name is still in this post....
IM more critic with zimmer than other people with his favourites composer(all the people who hardly c
I say all the "Bad things" about zimmer.And i said this score is really a dissapointment.And Zimmer vision of this score is totally wrong.I was very angry with zimmer when i heard this score for the first time....and now im just waiting for zimmer,his tunes,his dramatic touch without any aditional composers and with real orchestra.
Zimmer has a lot of mistakes,but his tunes and his dramatic peaks make me feel like any other composer make me feel(excep jerry golsmith).
IM NOT A ZIMMER FANATIC.


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Ken
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  In Response to:
Ivan orozco

  Responses to this Comment:
Ethan Grover
Ivan orozco
Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, January 21, 2006 (1:39 p.m.) 

Yes, it truly is a shame that Elfman could not take score this film. However, I do believe that the Batman series did need a little bit of fresh air. This movie truly needed to be separate from the previous films in many fashions and having a different sound track composed was a major point on the checklist that I am glad Chris Nolan addressed. Unfortunatly, I couldn't disagree more with most of what you said afterwards. Weather Hans Zimmer has more or less experience is hardly of any consequence. It is the product, not the experience of the composer, that counts most. His score to Gladiator was original during Maximusís dying scenes, but other than that, it is (at its core) regurgitation of the final fire scene from Backdraft.

Certainly the score for Batman Begins is a lot more effective than many of Hans's recent works (minus Tears of the Sun) but to be honest, I have to agree with the main review in that Zimmer didn't properly adjust himself and, like Horner when they give him time, simply regurgitated a lot of previously written material. This, to put it quite simply, just shows how truly unoriginal Hans has become.

To take some of the pressure of this scores shortcomings off of Hans, I truly believe that the two-note motive (that serves as the primary theme) is entirely a result of James Newton Howards minimalist phase (trying to improve on his genious work on Signs.) That was one thing about the score that annoyed me the most. Only once did they even bother to change the chord when the second note was stated. This is a very lazy concept. And, while it did make for a great great moment when we first get to see a big shot of the Batcave, it still takes away from the rest of the score. Main themes that are that simplistic CANNOT be regurgitated time and time again, with no variation, and remain interesting. That is not a good product, and I truly believe that James Newton Howard should have been able to notice that the score was going in that very poor direction and put a stop to it.

Once again, I left the theater with more of a feeling of bitterness and annoyance with the score than interest and a longing for more. What I heard was one of the most over-rated film scorers and one of the truly best film scorers just doing what they wanted. It truly was Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard composing the score to Batman Begins. At least, with Danny Elfman, the main theme sounded like BATMAN composed by danny elfman. Understand the significant difference?? Danny Elfman re-invented himself as a composer while composing the original Batman Scores. And then, you have this score where neither composer makes any true effort to compose Batman. They just compose their stuff and thatís it. I understand that there is a certain amount of Zimmer or Howard to be expected whenever their name comes up on a screen. But to have a movie this good fall to the ďTitanicĒ mentality of a composer is just wrong.

These are just my feelings about the score. I hope that I havenít offended anybody with them, and I hope they serve as good food for thought.



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Ethan Grover
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  In Response to:
Ken

  Responses to this Comment:
Ken
JimmyMac
Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, January 21, 2006 (2:08 p.m.) 

> Yes, it truly is a shame that Elfman could not take score this film.
> However, I do believe that the Batman series did need a little bit of
> fresh air. This movie truly needed to be separate from the previous films
> in many fashions and having a different sound track composed was a major
> point on the checklist that I am glad Chris Nolan addressed. Unfortunatly,
> I couldn't disagree more with most of what you said afterwards. Weather
> Hans Zimmer has more or less experience is hardly of any consequence. It
> is the product, not the experience of the composer, that counts most. His
> score to Gladiator was original during Maximusís dying scenes, but other
> than that, it is (at its core) regurgitation of the final fire scene from
> Backdraft.

> Certainly the score for Batman Begins is a lot more effective than many of
> Hans's recent works (minus Tears of the Sun) but to be honest, I have to
> agree with the main review in that Zimmer didn't properly adjust himself
> and, like Horner when they give him time, simply regurgitated a lot of
> previously written material. This, to put it quite simply, just shows how
> truly unoriginal Hans has become.

> To take some of the pressure of this scores shortcomings off of Hans, I
> truly believe that the two-note motive (that serves as the primary theme)
> is entirely a result of James Newton Howards minimalist phase (trying to
> improve on his genious work on Signs.) That was one thing about the score
> that annoyed me the most. Only once did they even bother to change the
> chord when the second note was stated. This is a very lazy concept. And,
> while it did make for a great great moment when we first get to see a big
> shot of the Batcave, it still takes away from the rest of the score. Main
> themes that are that simplistic CANNOT be regurgitated time and time
> again, with no variation, and remain interesting. That is not a good
> product, and I truly believe that James Newton Howard should have been
> able to notice that the score was going in that very poor direction and
> put a stop to it.

> Once again, I left the theater with more of a feeling of bitterness and
> annoyance with the score than interest and a longing for more. What I
> heard was one of the most over-rated film scorers and one of the truly
> best film scorers just doing what they wanted. It truly was Hans Zimmer
> and James Newton Howard composing the score to Batman Begins. At least,
> with Danny Elfman, the main theme sounded like BATMAN composed by danny
> elfman. Understand the significant difference?? Danny Elfman re-invented
> himself as a composer while composing the original Batman Scores. And
> then, you have this score where neither composer makes any true effort to
> compose Batman. They just compose their stuff and thatís it. I understand
> that there is a certain amount of Zimmer or Howard to be expected whenever
> their name comes up on a screen. But to have a movie this good fall to the
> ďTitanicĒ mentality of a composer is just wrong.

> These are just my feelings about the score. I hope that I havenít offended
> anybody with them, and I hope they serve as good food for thought.

I can understand where you're coming from. But i do not entirely agree, in fact
i barely agree at all.
You can say that danny elfman is the best for batman, but if you want to start talking about repetetive themes and using the same sort of themes over and over again, but never achieving a powerful moment, or sending goosebumps into the audience, then danny elfman is your guy. He uses the same creepy, "what's gonna happen next" theme all the time, but then it never explains what is actuallly happening next. Get my meaning??
I want to feel power, and glory, and inspiration from composers, only few have a way of defining power in such a perfect way.
Hans Zimmer makes Batman more powerful and real of a character. danny elfman's batman is a cartoon. I want it to be real, and i think modern viewers want it like that to. Everyone of my friends, people i've talked to, music teachers liked it much better being more powerful, real, and scary even.
Hans Zimmer's work is usually wonderful, i have yet to see anything that isn't.



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Ken
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  In Response to:
Ethan Grover

  Responses to this Comment:
Ivan orozco
Ethan
Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, January 21, 2006 (2:46 p.m.) 

Cool, man. We can shoot around the argument of repetetive themes all we want. The fact is that Elfman is not the kind of composer that you make him out to be, and was not during the original Batman track. The only way, I think, we can truly come to an understanding of any sort is if we understand the difference in the type of movie we're talking about. I don't really think that Elfman would have been perfect for Batman Begins. Simply because the original Batman movies were meant to be more in the purely Action genre with a little darkness and some token romance. Now, Elfmans music was perfect for THAT. And why it is significant is, once again, he not only came out of his own shell to compose that track, he probably wrote the greatest super hero score since Superman. His music fit THAT movie like a glove.

Now, as far as Hans's work is concerned, again I am just tired of his constant regurgitation. Being a composer hoping to get into film worko, I often look to catch film scorers when they use their parlor tricks that they use in every project they do. The unfortunate thing is that I don't have the patience anymore for composers like Zimmer, like Horner who not only re-write old material, but get paid top dollar to do it. I understand, of course that they have issues with time and that some of those parlor tricks are the only way that they can complete a score in time, but the same goes for Elfman, Zimmer, Goldsmith, Williams etc. And, not to mention that Elfmans original Batman Score may seem like nothing now, but how long ago did he write it?? It was 17 years ago. So, it is possible that, after all that time, the goosebumps from the great moments in the original Batman Score don't come so easily, but there are more than you give the composer credit for. You say that there are no moments in Batman, well.... No. From the very start of the score you're incorrect. The very begining, when he starts off with the drawn out, heroic theme, and then breaks right into the fast stuff with the snare solo and the horns playing the theme at double speed.... nobody in their right mind cannot call what happens there a "moment." Honestly, I still remember the opening orchestral cue being my favorite part of the movie. And I was 7 years old!!! The entrance of the Batmobile is pretty significant and is supported very well. And then, not to mention the conclusion of the movie!! I mean, he pulls thematic direction straight out of beethovens head (not themes, direction) and takes the theme higher and higher in range until finally having a Zarathustra moment to end it. You can't really deny the excitement that that kind of music can create.

Now, again, I understand that this is an almost totally new batman, but still you can't deny that the original soundtrack to Batman was significant As you have done. You also can't listen to this score and deny WITH A STRAIGHT FACE that this is not just Zimmerism after Zimmerism with a little Howard mixed in.

One more thing: I'm not saying that Zimmers work isn't good, but you can have too much of a good thing very easily and to hear just the Same Old Stuff from him over and over again is a major dissapointment to me. I do believe in his potential to be TRULY great, but I don't think he's quite there yet. He has at least one more step to take.

> I can understand where you're coming from. But i do not entirely agree, in
> fact
i barely agree at all.
You can say that danny elfman is the
> best for batman, but if you want to start talking about repetetive themes
> and using the same sort of themes over and over again, but never achieving
> a powerful moment, or sending goosebumps into the audience, then danny
> elfman is your guy. He uses the same creepy, "what's gonna happen
> next" theme all the time, but then it never explains what is
> actuallly happening next. Get my meaning??
I want to feel power, and
> glory, and inspiration from composers, only few have a way of defining
> power in such a perfect way.
Hans Zimmer makes Batman more powerful
> and real of a character. danny elfman's batman is a cartoon. I want it to
> be real, and i think modern viewers want it like that to. Everyone of my
> friends, people i've talked to, music teachers liked it much better being
> more powerful, real, and scary even.
Hans Zimmer's work is usually
> wonderful, i have yet to see anything that isn't.


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Ivan orozco
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  In Response to:
Ken

  Responses to this Comment:
Ken
Re: Batman Begins Score   Tuesday, January 31, 2006 (3:59 p.m.) 

> Cool, man. We can shoot around the argument of repetetive themes all we
> want. The fact is that Elfman is not the kind of composer that you make
> him out to be, and was not during the original Batman track. The only way,
> I think, we can truly come to an understanding of any sort is if we
> understand the difference in the type of movie we're talking about. I
> don't really think that Elfman would have been perfect for Batman Begins.
> Simply because the original Batman movies were meant to be more in the
> purely Action genre with a little darkness and some token romance. Now,
> Elfmans music was perfect for THAT. And why it is significant is, once
> again, he not only came out of his own shell to compose that track, he
> probably wrote the greatest super hero score since Superman. His music fit
> THAT movie like a glove.

> Now, as far as Hans's work is concerned, again I am just tired of his
> constant regurgitation. Being a composer hoping to get into film worko, I
> often look to catch film scorers when they use their parlor tricks that
> they use in every project they do. The unfortunate thing is that I don't
> have the patience anymore for composers like Zimmer, like Horner who not
> only re-write old material, but get paid top dollar to do it. I
> understand, of course that they have issues with time and that some of
> those parlor tricks are the only way that they can complete a score in
> time, but the same goes for Elfman, Zimmer, Goldsmith, Williams etc. And,
> not to mention that Elfmans original Batman Score may seem like nothing
> now, but how long ago did he write it?? It was 17 years ago. So, it is
> possible that, after all that time, the goosebumps from the great moments
> in the original Batman Score don't come so easily, but there are more than
> you give the composer credit for. You say that there are no moments in
> Batman, well.... No. From the very start of the score you're incorrect.
> The very begining, when he starts off with the drawn out, heroic theme,
> and then breaks right into the fast stuff with the snare solo and the
> horns playing the theme at double speed.... nobody in their right mind
> cannot call what happens there a "moment." Honestly, I still
> remember the opening orchestral cue being my favorite part of the movie.
> And I was 7 years old!!! The entrance of the Batmobile is pretty
> significant and is supported very well. And then, not to mention the
> conclusion of the movie!! I mean, he pulls thematic direction straight out
> of beethovens head (not themes, direction) and takes the theme higher and
> higher in range until finally having a Zarathustra moment to end it. You
> can't really deny the excitement that that kind of music can create.

> Now, again, I understand that this is an almost totally new batman, but
> still you can't deny that the original soundtrack to Batman was
> significant As you have done. You also can't listen to this score and deny
> WITH A STRAIGHT FACE that this is not just Zimmerism after Zimmerism with
> a little Howard mixed in.

> One more thing: I'm not saying that Zimmers work isn't good, but you can
> have too much of a good thing very easily and to hear just the Same Old
> Stuff from him over and over again is a major dissapointment to me. I do
> believe in his potential to be TRULY great, but I don't think he's quite
> there yet. He has at least one more step to take.

once again ken shut your yapping and enjoy this soundtrack for what it is for old time sake mr jackass

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Ken
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Ivan orozco
Re: Batman Begins Score   Thursday, March 9, 2006 (3:28 p.m.) 

i barely agree at
You can say that danny elfman is the
I want to
> feel power,
Hans Zimmer makes Batman more powerful
Hans Zimmer's
> work is

> once again ken shut your yapping and enjoy this soundtrack for what it is
> for old time sake mr jackass

You want to actually convince me to shut up, or are you going to only continue to demand that I do with only your desire for me to do it as a reason?? Tell me what makes me wrong. And it had better be damned good. If you can't do that, you're the one who needs to "shut your yapping" (do you have any grasp of the english language at all?)and crawl back to whatever pathetic hole you crawled out of.

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Ethan
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  In Response to:
Ken

  Responses to this Comment:
Ken
Re: Batman Begins Score   Thursday, February 9, 2006 (10:53 p.m.) 

> Cool, man. We can shoot around the argument of repetetive themes all we
> want. The fact is that Elfman is not the kind of composer that you make
> him out to be, and was not during the original Batman track. The only way,
> I think, we can truly come to an understanding of any sort is if we
> understand the difference in the type of movie we're talking about. I
> don't really think that Elfman would have been perfect for Batman Begins.
> Simply because the original Batman movies were meant to be more in the
> purely Action genre with a little darkness and some token romance. Now,
> Elfmans music was perfect for THAT. And why it is significant is, once
> again, he not only came out of his own shell to compose that track, he
> probably wrote the greatest super hero score since Superman. His music fit
> THAT movie like a glove.

> Now, as far as Hans's work is concerned, again I am just tired of his
> constant regurgitation. Being a composer hoping to get into film worko, I
> often look to catch film scorers when they use their parlor tricks that
> they use in every project they do. The unfortunate thing is that I don't
> have the patience anymore for composers like Zimmer, like Horner who not
> only re-write old material, but get paid top dollar to do it. I
> understand, of course that they have issues with time and that some of
> those parlor tricks are the only way that they can complete a score in
> time, but the same goes for Elfman, Zimmer, Goldsmith, Williams etc. And,
> not to mention that Elfmans original Batman Score may seem like nothing
> now, but how long ago did he write it?? It was 17 years ago. So, it is
> possible that, after all that time, the goosebumps from the great moments
> in the original Batman Score don't come so easily, but there are more than
> you give the composer credit for. You say that there are no moments in
> Batman, well.... No. From the very start of the score you're incorrect.
> The very begining, when he starts off with the drawn out, heroic theme,
> and then breaks right into the fast stuff with the snare solo and the
> horns playing the theme at double speed.... nobody in their right mind
> cannot call what happens there a "moment." Honestly, I still
> remember the opening orchestral cue being my favorite part of the movie.
> And I was 7 years old!!! The entrance of the Batmobile is pretty
> significant and is supported very well. And then, not to mention the
> conclusion of the movie!! I mean, he pulls thematic direction straight out
> of beethovens head (not themes, direction) and takes the theme higher and
> higher in range until finally having a Zarathustra moment to end it. You
> can't really deny the excitement that that kind of music can create.

> Now, again, I understand that this is an almost totally new batman, but
> still you can't deny that the original soundtrack to Batman was
> significant As you have done. You also can't listen to this score and deny
> WITH A STRAIGHT FACE that this is not just Zimmerism after Zimmerism with
> a little Howard mixed in.

> One more thing: I'm not saying that Zimmers work isn't good, but you can
> have too much of a good thing very easily and to hear just the Same Old
> Stuff from him over and over again is a major dissapointment to me. I do
> believe in his potential to be TRULY great, but I don't think he's quite
> there yet. He has at least one more step to take.
i barely agree at
> all.
You can say that danny elfman is the
I want to feel power,
> and
Hans Zimmer makes Batman more powerful
Hans Zimmer's work is
> usually

Okay, i see your point. I didn't mean to deny danny elfman's talent, i think his work is pretty good. But i do not, however understand how anyone could feel "power" in his music. I see very creative, original mysterious, quiete themes, but none of them have the same effect that Zimmer's music has. With Zimmer, you can feel goosebumps because his music is so powerful, you are a helpless against it.
Zimmer and elfman write completely different styles of music. I do agree with you that Elfman fit the first batmans perfectly, the would have been completely different, more serious movies if they had been scored by Zimmer.
I believe that Hans Zimmer was perfect for bringing batman back to life. Especially for this generation of films. Much has changed over 17 years. Don't kid yourself by saying that Zimmer's work is mostly regurgitation from earlier works. That Would be a completely opinionated statement. Zimmer's work in GLADIATOR!!!! (academy award winning) King Arthur, something's gotta give, spanglish, Lion King, The Ring is so utterly original, it isn't funny.
Hans Zimmer IS right up there with John Williams, Howard Shore, in fact, Hans Zimmer could easily be in the top five modern day composers, or top three even.
No one "in there right mind" can say that they don't feel power in Zimmer's work, you can't, it's impossible.
Not only does Zimmer write amazing music, but he picks up young composers and funds them and helps them in their careers. For example: Pirates of The Caribbean (Klaus Badelt) TRAINED BY HANS ZIMMER and almost every kid in America loves the music in Pirates. The Lion King will always be remembered as Disnye's premiere musical masterpiece.
Danny Elfman writes some great stuff. He just isn't cut out for the same kind of work as Zimmer. Zimmer's music is more real, and inspiring. Your statement about feeling the Batman score is clearly opinianated, and then again, so may mine, but you really must secede to Hans Zimmer's work. I am so sick of people telling me it's repetative. IT'S NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The problem is that people are just not musically inclined so all they here is ONE of Zimmer's main themes. Zimmer's underscoring is always changing. His work is by far one of the greatest achievements in modern film score composing and i say this from the stand point of being an independent film maker, Hans Zimmer IS one of the best.

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Re: Batman Begins Score   Thursday, March 9, 2006 (4:19 p.m.) 

Ethan, you wrote---- With Zimmer, you can feel goosebumps because his music

is so powerful, you are a helpless against it.

I think it's great that you have somebody that can give you those goosebumps. However, the thing to realize (and I probably haven't done the best job of realizing it myself) is that everybody has somebody who gives them that, and someone who wants to make them spill their lunch from yesterday. Unfortunately, for me, Hans is the latter. And I should clarify that I feel power in Elfmans music.... rarely. Batman and the Spiderman movies (Although I have yet to see either one all the way through) are probably the two big projects that he has done that showcase the power that he is capable of. The things about Elfman that I really like are his darkness and originality. His style is fairly demented, and that opens up his ability to write humorous stuff (I.E. Pee-Wees Big Adventure, Back To School.) But to see what he did with Batman just sold me on him. Maybe Hans will do that for me one of these days, but he hasn't done it yet.

So, anybody in their right mind can not feel the power in Zimmers music that the person next to them might feel. To me, Goldsmith, Williams, John Debney, Bruce Broughton, James Newton Howard are in the top 5 because they have such great musicality and I find that they are so much more concerned with trying to push their own envelopes. Now, John Williams doesn't push his envelope on film so much as with his Concert music wich is Drastically underplayed and underappreciated because of his film career. And James Newton Howard, I think, probably tried to push the envelope a bit too much in this one (you know, the whole two note theme thing... *S*.) And John Debney, who I just met last night and is a wonderful individual, is a really a great up and comer with a very fresh sound (especially the last race of Dreamer.... that is goose bump music, too.)

You also wrote----Don't kid yourself by saying that Zimmer's work is mostly regurgitation from earlier works. That Would be a completely opinionated statement.

That is not kidding myself or you, and it certainly is not based on opinion. That is FACT. And I do understand the need for composers in film to have a "bag of tricks", but that bag of tricks should not include mere cutting and pasting. And it goes back even farther than The Rock. I mean, his battle music has been exactly the same ever since Backdraft, and maybe even further back (I don't think I know of any of his work before Backdraft.) I mean, just pick 5 or six movies that he composed for and listen to them and you will find that it is barely more than cut and paste. Believe me. I tried it a couple weeks ago just to be shure I was right. Also, Disney Movies and Horror are not his usual Genres. I couldn't stand the Lion King as a movie, and I don't think I ever even got to see the ring. So I'll look at that to see what the track was like.

I couldn't agree more with your assessment that the two composers are completely different in their styles and will fit one movie and not the next. That is a wonderful point that I didn't even think of, and I'm sorry for that.

A very funny thing that you wrote is------ The Lion King will always be remembered as Disnye's premiere musical masterpiece.

Then people have a very short memory. It wasn't long before that that the best real musical picture that Disney ever made was released. I think it was called.... oh I don't know. Beauty and the Beast? Even got nominated for Best Picture when the acadamy still had some credibility left. Interesting, huh?

Also, Hans's practice of training young composers almost scares me. If anybody listened to the Score to Pirates, they would know that Ole Hans was behind it. In point of fact, there were 8 of Hans's "Media Ventures" staff composing the score for that film, so you will not be able to convince me that Hans didn't just simply hand Klaus the material and tell him to have those staff work it into the movie ('cause he was really more of a supervisor for that soundtrack than an actual composer and that's coming from one of the guys who is on the in, so that is another matter of FACT [the 8 composer thing and Klaus supervising point]). Also, every kid in America liking the movie is a great bragging right for business because you know that you're probably going to sell a lot of soundtracks, or a lot of the DVDs are gonna be bought because the kiddies could latch onto the one main tune that was obsessed over the whole movie(and I am a composer myself, so I understand there is more than just one theme going on in a movie.) Just because all the kids like it doesn't make it good. It was funny, that was probably the only soundtrack that I think I can see drum corps people marching in a stadium to, and that is not a compliment to the music. It's more on the level of saying it sounds like something that I wrote when I was about 17.

And where is is written that I MUST seceed to Zimmer??? You say that our position on these composers is opinionated (but it is based on opinion and there is a huge difference) and then you are trying to tell me that I can't have mine?? At least I've only been stating mine and discussing how I feel about it. You are downright telling me that my opinion doesn't deserve to exhist. I don't have to secede to anything. I don't like Hans's work and that's it. You wanted an opinion, you got it. You can have yours, but I can have mine too. I believe that, if I want to hear Zimmer, I can either see a movie scored by him, or a movie scored by James Horner and I can get the same effect. Of course there are differences, but the both of them write their stuff in very similar fashion. Hundred Piece orchestras playing these large chorale melodies that are tired by the time they come around for statement number 3. You wanna listen to that, then more power to ya. I'll find something much more interesting and satisfying to do.

Also, if you want to talk about Hans being better because he is an oscar award winning composer, then you'd probably better figure out why a composer like Goldsmith (who spent about 4 decades in the business and never let his name fade) only has one oscar AND a lifetime achievement award from the academy. And the score that he won for was freakin' good, but I can think of several scores that he composed that should have won and weren't even considered. So, oscars really count for about as much as every kid in America liking the music that he fed to one of his chronies.

So, in closing, I will say I'm glad that Hans's Music does what it does for you. That's great. I remember a day when even Horner did that for me. But one thing that I cannot get around is what does not change. That doesn't so much make Hans bad, in my book. What makes him bad in my book is that his repetition is as uninteresting as it is. John Williams, James Horner, Jerry Goldsmith... they are the best scorers to date and they all repeat. Some of them have styles I like, and some have styles that make me vomit. I know the same is true for you.

Take care, Ethan.



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Re: Batman Begins Score   Thursday, March 9, 2006 (10:49 p.m.) 

Let us begin with this simple statement...........I agree with you. But I just am having trouble grasping the concept that you believe that just because you can tell when you watch a movie, it was scored by Hansy.
Now.... I will say that i'm am frequently alone defending Hans Zimmer from my friends and colleagues, against people like Danny Elfman. In fact, most of my arguments are over such things. Yes, Hansy can get to sound the same. But in an entirrely defferent way than you think. You say that Hansy "copies and pastes" but he clearly doesn't. Yes, there are parts in several epic battle movies where i hear similar sounding runs from gladiator, but then they turn and are something completely and utterly different, but still Hansy. Same can be said for any composer, and that's a fact. YOU CAN usually tell who wrote the music by the opening theme. FACT. Now, let me tell you what your real problem with Hansy is since we've already assesed that Hansy DOES NOT copy and paste any more than John Williams, Debney, etc. FACT. No further discussion. Your problem with Hans (this is all that i can think of) is that you don't (must not) like big powerful french horn/full orchestra themes that speak power to the audience. Am i wrong, because i can think of nothing else that could be bothering you other than the fact that you obviously don't like it when you can tell who the score is by just by listening to an opening theme. Hans Zimmer has an originality that has been copied by many, if i may, Half-Ass composers: Harry Gregson Williams, Klaus Badelt, and even, your beloved John Debney. I here Hansy in all of them. Ever since the beautiful score of Gladiator, it's gotten worse. I know, i know, you think John Debney is in the top 5, once again your opinion and you have the right to that, but listen closely to his music, you might find some Hansy in it.

Another thing you might not know about is that Hansy doesn't only write scores to major big hit epic battle pictures but also a variety of different kind of movie, hanceforth different movies. Spanglish, Something's Gotta Give, As Good as is Gets, Rain Man, ever heard of those movies. Hansy. Did you know that just a year ago i had no idea who the hell Hans Zimmer was. I would repetitively listen to the music on the Gladiator DVD menu. I kept hearing all this different sounding music in different movies. I never connected them to Hansy until i became more enthralled with music. You say you are a composer. Well, i've done a little coposing myself to, and being very young, i'm sure that you are extremely better than me by far, but i always have wondered how Hans Zimmer comes up with his themes. You know, DAnny Elfman themes are easy to figure out for me (on the piano) but Hansy ones are too hard to figure out where to begin. I like that. I like the powerful feeling. I dream of becoming a film maker/ score composer one day and connecting Hansy and Danny to write a score together. What a profound masterpiece that would be, eh. Who knows.

I envy you very very much. How on earth did you meet John Debney. Impossible, although i consider him a Hansy wannabe... wich he is, it would still be fairly neat to meet a professional score composer.

Let us end with this request: If you haven't already, sit down some time, and listen to Spanglish, Something's Gotta Give, Gladiator, etc. and just please, please tell me what it is that you don't like. I consider Hans Zimmer a very original composer that brings new life to modern film, i hope that he will score one of my films one day,and bring life of the new 21st century flm music to my movie.

Try to accept good music for what it is, film music's purpose is this, and only this: To perfectly fit the movie in which the score is written for, and tell, completely, the story of the film, as so to be interpereted. And THAT is why people when academy awards for best film score, not because the music is good alone, not because it might (to some) sound similar to other music. Take Mozart for example, you can always tell Mozart. Now adays there are completely different ages of music at once: Elfman, Hansy, Williams, Howard Shore (my favorite composer of all time; Lord of the Rings)

So do attempt to accept film music for what is really is meant to be/do

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Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, March 11, 2006 (12:41 a.m.) 

Ethan, Sounds good, man.

Okey Dokey. I will start with a simple statement, too. All film composers will inherently have a "signature sound" within the genres. Not only that, but they have been known to insert previously composed material into current projects. Make no mistake, WE did not asses that Hans does not insert previously used material into his current films. YOU made that assessment. That assessment is also innacurate. Hans is not above the other composers. He does copy things from old scores. I've heard it several times. I suppose one problem that I do have is that it is the same.... you know, it's usually one lick. A 3-note motive, ascending stepwise. Wouldn't be so bad if there were different chords under that motive here and there.... a significantly different rhythm to it..... but he doesn't even choose to do that. To me, that is like taking a class a second time, and turning in a paper that you wrote the first time you took it, but not changing the date. It's a little careless, it's kind of a turn off, and it usually results in a less than A grade. And, when the repeats are that blatant (that is to say that this is the tune that this motive is always inserted into) it just makes it very hard for me to focus on any good that he's done. After listening to the End Credits of Tears of the Sun, I had to wait for two weeks to pound that soundtrack into my mind because of that same motive. And that's the only place that I heard it. Of course, I was listening to the track by watching the movie, so I might have missed it, but there it was. Such great work, such a spectacular redefinition of his sound, and then BOOM!! That just took it all away for me.

Oh, and Debney hasn't done the cut and paste thing as much as Zimmer by a long shot. He's been doing films for about 10 years now and Hansy's been doin' them for 20, so I'll let you digest that probability equation.*s*

Now, as to what you believe my problem with Hans is.... you know, if you think that Air Force One was not a French Horn/ Full Orchestra theme that spoke power to the audience, you're wrong and that is one of my favorite scores ever. What about Star Trek: First Contact. Have you ever heard a better composed French Horn Solo in your life? If you have, I'd love to hear it. What about James Newton Howard with Dave? Does that not count?? That is one of my favorite comedy scores ever. That was tastefully done (and I'll tell ya, all you would've had to do was remind me that ole Hansy was the lucky dood who wrote Driving Miss Daisy, and I would have shut the hell up on the spot,) it was fairly well outside of his comfort zone, and he excelled. Let's see.... what else can we say? OH YEAH!!!!!!!! YES!! How could I miss the Memphis Belle??? And, did you hear the main theme to Backdraft, a year later?? Remarkable similarities. Both in the actual theme and the orchestration.... it's as if Hans just lifted it right off the score *hah!* (and I'm *hah*-ing because I just realized it not because I think I'm sticking it to anyone.)

The other thing about me not liking somebodies work because I can tell it's them.... It's about the whole person and the way they come across both musically, and as human beings. I don't know Hans. He might have a heart of gold, but he seems so fake to me, when I watch his interviews. I mean, it's as if his enthusiasm is forced, and as if his ego is of cataclysmic perportions. Wether that is the way it really is or not, I don't know for certain. But there is still that sour taste in my mouth about what kind of person he is, AND the fact that his compositional comfort zone is on par with James Horner (which is not a compliment.) Another thing is that I like people who can find more ways than just blocked chords under a chorale to truly show power in their sound. I like composers who don't need over 100 people to get that kind of power. I know that Hans routinely records 5 tubists in his full orchestras (for things like Pearl, Gladi, Crimson, etc.) and the big thing that I wonder is "How often do I hear them in these movies?" 'Matter of fact, I can't really remember ever actually hearing tuba in his scores. I understand that I am turned off by his product and I probably haven't listened close enough to his recent works to figure out if that's correct or not, but still.... if a guy who plays tuba can't hear any tubists when 5 of the loudest on the planet are playing.... somethin' ain't right. But then, there's Maestro Williams who uses.... 1. And I hear it all the time. Because John has a very intricate style of composing that draws power from motion, velocity, interval, dissonance, everything a composer can draw power from, Johnny boy draws from it. Two very different composers, two very different sounds, one that I happen to like more than the other (I'll let you guess which one I like more.)

Moving on.... in your last post, you lifted up Klaus Badelt as one of your big examples of Hans's greatness, and now you call him a half-ass. Funny. It explains a lot, but it's still funny. And, John Debney.... you call him a half-ass, I call him up and coming. He's been doing films for 10 years now, and has been getting calls for more films that Hans probably would have been called for if the films were made in previous years. The other element to John's situation is that he is not yet in a position to impose his sound on directors like Hans does, like Horner does, like a lot of Composers do. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the directors have imposed sounds of other composers on him. For instansce, Zathura. The opening credits were supposed to be an Homage to Goldsmith and Williams. That is what Jon Favreau wanted, and that's what he got. No Zimmer involved there, surprise surprise.

Also, I think that Debney's comedy sound was done developing while Zimmers modern day comedy sound was just finishing its development. For one, Liar Liar and As Good as it Gets came out in the same year. Debney scored Liar, and Hans scored Good as it Gets. Of course, Hans's movie came out on Christmas of that year and Liar Liar was released in March, and Hans's comedy sound has stayed very true to As Good as it Gets, but Debney kept getting the calls for the comedy films. So, I would actually say that it is a little bit of Debney in Zimmers sound. Also, I believe that, as soon as John Debney is given the chance to work on the kinds of films that Zimmer, Horner, and Williams routinely work on, he will assert himself as one of the best. That is why I put him in my top 5. It is really more of a prediciton, rather than saying he's there now. As for Harry Gregson Williams, give him time. I mean, Hans even had to change his sound to suit Disneys stuff. So, naturally, Gregson Williams would have to do less than he probably wanted with Narnia. I couldn't imagine half the "pop" style music that was in the film actually being in the film, so I am convinced that he had to hold himself back and that might just be one reason why that score seemed half-ass.

Also, for figuring out Hans's stuff.... I mean, Gladiator's main theme is all step-wise motion and neo-romantic chord progressions. It's first-year theory. That's not meant to put you down in any way, but I think that if you got some more training, you'd be able to figure out Hans's stuff. You're a pretty sharp guy, and I think that you could do it.

Also, something you might want to consider about Hans's music is the monotony. For me this is the fact that he will communicate power, but he will do it at all times. A theme will come in, but never really go anywhere because he gives it all that the theme has to offer the first time he states it. This takes away from moments in a film where saving 100% power until the climax would have been wise. He often will hold back just a little bit, but not nearly as much as he needs to. And that, to me, takes away the effectiveness of a films climax. One reason why Elfman saved the "Zarathustra" theme from Batman until the end is because he realized that that was going to be the biggest moment of the whole film. And, consequently, he spent the whole film (after a good and bold opening statement) working towards that one spot.

I also have to agree that putting Danny and Hansy together would be great. And, if it actually resulted in a mix of their sounds and ideas.... Woah!! Way beyond anything this batman score, or the last one, could have done for me.

Back to John Debney, it was really just chance. A guy who went to High School with him is at my university and he got John to sit in and do a lecture for one of the commercial classes. Being a Comp Major, I was invited to stop in and listen. It was a wonderful experience and his music is just superb.

And, no. He is not a Hansey wannabe. He does what he does. That's it. He's been doing things long enough to know how the other biggies do what they do, but he just does what he does. He is a very neat guy, nice as heck, a great conversationalist and a really solid mind and heart. The perfect combination for a film scorer. Again, I believe that he will go very far.

Okay, now I am at your request here. I will do that. I remember that Something's Gotta Give was a charming movie with an almost transparrant score (yes, that is a compliment), and I haven't seen Gladiator in a while.... plus I've never seen Spanglish, and I need a Sandler fix.

Right off the bat, though, I will tell you two things I don't like about Gladiator. First is that I've heard that main theme before somewhere. I want to say that it was on the Summon the Heroes album (I could be dilusional though, and I felt the same way about that opera scene from Hannibal [I do think that is a really cool tune. Very Pucinni].) Two, he tries to convince anybody he can that the chromatic theme in the Battle at the beginning is not just the middle of Mars reorchestrated and switched up a bit for good measure. And I can't stand anybody who does something and tries to convince everybody else that it's something else and not what it really is. John Williams quotes The Planets quite often in Star Wars. But I haven't heard him make any effort to make people believe that he was really trying to manipulate a Vieneese Waltz.

Now, about accepting good music for what it is... I can't help, being a composer, wondering how much better things could be if Hans put just a little bit more real effort into his scores. That's the kind of score that I want to hear from him. I want him to have more "Tears of the Sun" experiences (minus his "every-movie" motive) and to redefine himself as often as he can and NOT regress back to the tired sound that I have associated with him. I don't find a lot of his recent stuff to be good music, but I'll tell ya that I've been on the IMDB to be shure that my dates are right and to see just what each composer that you and I have discussed has done. And I tell ya, I think that Hans was so much better 15 years ago than he is now, it's almost sickening. There was a great deal more youth in his sound before. So much more fire and... I guess it was more child-like in a good way. Like he was playing with his favorite toy. That is the kind of music that I wish I could hear from him again.

Here's hopin'.



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Re: Batman Begins Score   Wednesday, March 22, 2006 (5:01 p.m.) 

-Alright. Sorry it's taken me so long to write back. I've been really busy with things, including composing some of my own music.

- Let me make it very clear that regardless of whatever anyone says, I have to yet to see an epic battle movie that can flow superbly, sound so powerful that it makes goosebumps run down your spine, hit you at just the right moment and connect you to the power and mind of the characters and their story as well as Hansy has and can do. I strongly believe that the best composer alive today who can bring out nothing but pure power, dark or light, is definately Hansy.

- I must say that if i didn't know that you were a die hard Hansy opposer i would have to believe that you're out of your mind when you said that "my problem with Gladiator is...." I mean come on! I'm sorry, but Gladiator is by far one of the BEST SCORES EVER WRITTEN FOR A MOVIE. I can't believe that anyone could have problems with the Gladiator theme. But you must know, Pirates and a lot of other epic battle themes are very similar to Gladiator, and guess what, Hansy came up with it first. I strongly feel that Gladiator is a perfect collaboration of Hans Zimmer's originality and the vocal talents of Lisa Gerrerd. To me, the score does exactly what it is meant to do: speak Roman Empire to the audience, with a hint of dark Progeny, death, power, and glory of Maximas. Considering the fact that is a score doesn't do that job, and that job alone, then that composer is done for. Becuase why the hell else would someone hire them. Film composers wouldn't get hired if they only wrote music for people to listen to. When I hear a better score for an epic battle movie, i'll let you know.

- As for the whole copy and paste thing. Perhaps Hansy does do some of that, but let me tell you something, SO DOES WILLIAMS, HORNER, DEBNEY, and even your beloved ELFMAN. Especially mr. elfman. Every single one of his scores almost sounds the same. He always has that sneaky little mysterious them gettin it on, and then, just when you think something cool should happen (like in Hansy's work) it doesn't. It becomes depressing, and uninteresting. As you said before, the Danny Elfman strategy of poping out in the beginning, and never resurfacing until the end. God, how boring is that. Man, as a movie goer, i am totally turned off from the movie. I want power. I want to know the movie, the story, the composer, and the characters through the music.

- Let me also say, that as an exception to my thrashing of Danny Elfman above, i must give him that i think that Edward Scissorhand is a great achievement in film music, as is Gladiator, and Lord of The Rings. Funny, isn't it, how these three composers can come up with this great music, but yet in all three of them, you think you here those themes again throughout the course of other movies. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Maybe you're supposed to, like a signature you know. So now, i must agree with you, Hansy's signature is fairly obvious sometimes. But you know what, no more than Elfman's. If i may be so bold as to say, HOWARD SHORE IS THE BEST COMPOSER OF ALL TIME. But hey, you know what, i always know it's Howard. I love that. I want to be able to hear the opening credits and go, hey that' Danny, or that's Hansy. Sometimes I'm wrong, but a lot of the time i'm right. You can tell with most composers, Silvestri, Williams, Horner, Zimmer, Elfman, Kaczmarek, Badelt, etc.

- I don't understand your trashing of James Horner. I consider him another one of the best composers of the modern era. Totally different sound than Hansy. Whoa, imagine that!

- Also, Klaus Badelt's Pirates is a pretty cool tune, however, it is just a tweaked up rendition of Gladiator, and King Arthur, and maybe, some of The Last Samurai.

- Gregson-Williams is a cheap-ass with crazy pop crap, but yet, he still has some nice stuff, like Armagedon.

- News flash.. If don't already know, Hansy has two movies coming out pretty soon. One that i'm extremely excited about is The Davinci Code (May 5th) We'll have to see what that sounds like, eh. I do hope, as you do, that we'll here some knew sounds in his upcoming stuff. Also, Pirates 2 is coming out, in June or July, also Hansy. Hopefully he will correct Klaus Badelt's stolen theme, and take it somewhere else.

- As an ambitious future filmaker, one of my great ambitions is to have Elfman and Hansy do a score, and Williams and Hansy, i mean John, and also of course, Shore and Hansy. What a dream come true.

- One more thing, if you haven't seen Pride & Prejudice you should. I'm listening to the soundtrack right now, it's pretty good.

- Hopefully, one day, Hansy will appeal to you in some good way as he has done for me.

- Sorry it took so long,
Ethan


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Ken
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  In Response to:
Ethan
Re: Batman Begins Score   Sunday, March 26, 2006 (10:00 p.m.) 

Hey man,

Don't even worry about taking time to have a life outside this discussion. I hope that the music is flowing well. Also, if you like Howard Shores music, you might like the music of Gustav Mahler. I would reccomend Symphony #1 "Titan" with Sir George Solti conducting the Chicago Symphony. Also, the Vienna Phil Recording of his Fifth Symphony with Lauren Maazel Conducting(very inexpensive, and you can't miss it. It's in a bright red case. Should be available at your local borders.) I think you and I can both agree that there is some considerable power in both of those pieces. Symphony #1 requires a shade more patience at the start and less at the end because the whole piece is (in some way) accelerating towards the ending when Nature finally triumphs, as Mahlers ideals so say. But the Fifth just hits you almost right after the start. The later movements don't hit me with the same force, but they're pretty cool too. Definitely a lot of fun for that tuba player, Lord help him. *hehe*

Anyhow, on to your points...... I'm very glad that you have developed your own tastes. I guess the only thing that I question is... is power right at all times? I think that Hansy has mastered one way of communicating power and that is the large orchestra. When you hit 100 people playing for you, something just happens to the sound of the group. It is very hard to describe, especially since I've never heard it live, but it's supposed to be somethin' else. Throw in over 100 people, some good orchestrators (for both instrumental assignment, and alteration for voice leadings sake) and you can have a powerful sound. I just don't like what he does with it. But that's my thing.

But, you wanna know the truth?? I really like it when they give him little things to work with. I actually watched all of Driving Miss Daisy the other day (I don't think I've done that since it was out in theaters) and.... I'll tell ya; There may have only been three evident themes in that movie, but they not only fit, they were catchy and classy and truly enhanced the film. I mean, I consider the opening notes of the sound track as an independant theme. It doesn't really get stated as often as the clarinet solo that everybody knows from that movie, but it still works as one. One that is not prominent over the entire film for some reason that I think I will find in susequent viewings. Then there is the famous Clarinet Solo (the movies main theme.) And one of the things that I love about the simplicity of this soundtrack is that he doesn't do things on such a grand scale that the minor variances don't stick out. In the case of the movies main theme, two big things really jump out at me. 1:The cue is written to the tempo of Jessica Tandy's step. 2: The second half of the theme does not make its appearance until the car starts moving with her in the back and Morgan Freeman driving. Almost as if to say that she was not a whole person without Freemans character, and we come to find that is the truth at the end. Of course, there is a good solid Jewish sounding theme worked in to the movie as an obvious salute to Miss Daisy's heritage and it is used most notably when she is near the temple, but it is used a few other times here and there, indicating that her faith doesn't just stop at the building. While that soundtrack may not be the biggest shinging example of power, I think that it is one of the best examples of Hans doing really good work. Not really goose-bump good, but just darned solid. And that's what I miss. From both Zimmer AND Horner.

You pointed out that you have no idea why I don't like Jimmy Horner. Well, for one, he's a Texas boy who tries to sound like he's from London (from one of his tapes instructing an orchestrator,) he doesn't even let his orchestrators come to the recording sessions to hear their own work for fear that what he explains to the group will be corrected by them... and also has a very flakey work ethic. I understand very much so that he cuts and pastes. I mean, look at this little situation. You got Courage Under Fire claiming that it has the music of Glory. Since 95% of the soundtrack to Courage is the same bloody cue just cut and pasted to fit the film, I have to believe that 95% of what I'm hearing is from Glory, if not all of it. Then, what does Horner Do?? Not only does he blatantly lift half of Bruce Broughton's "The Boy Who Could Fly" theme, he takes that same cue from Glory AND Courage, and Throws it into Titanic!!!! I mean, The Boy who could fly is just that scottish sounding chorale theme that you hear in the "king of the world" scene and Courage is the Iceberg scene, and it's stated in fragmentary form all throughout the sinking (pretty much the whole back half of the film.)
Now, I would like to give you my real theory on what we need to do to make Horner great: Don't give him any time to write the score. If you don't believe me, go and get the Aliens DVD (I think it's a 2 disk thing) and watch his interview. It was the only time I've seen him interview without being especially snobbish, and it also addresses that James Cameron changing a sequence around and telling Horner about it at the session forced him to stay up overnight and write the greatest cue that he's ever written (the escape sequence that you hear in the trailor for like every action movie in the world now a days.) Not only was that good, but (aside from the Greeks landing sequence) Troy was an especially good product. I caught very few of his usual "Hornerisms" and I'm generally on those like a drug-dog on crack.

Anyway, to sum up. It is only Hans's work as of late that has truly turned me off. From both he and Jim Horner, the late eighties/early Ninties were a great time. I mean, you have Backdraft, Miss Daisy, Radio Flyer (nothing great, just a personal favorite), and then Horner's got Rocketeer (I think that's his best day, personally,) Glory, Patriot Games, Swing Kids... All of these are good scores. With Hans's case, I think that he was just getting into this stuff then (he only started scoring films about 84) and it was like a kid playing with a new toy. I just don't really feel that it's the same anymore. But, heh. Again. Just my thing.

One last thing. I don't know if you've heard of this guy.... but Bill Brown seems to be a shining example of what I wish Hans would do. Bill is the composer of the Rainbow Six music, and it has a very "The Rock" sound to it (I imagine that Ubisoft wanted Hans's sound but couldn't afford him so they found a guy who could do it.) But the thing is this: He has Hans's sound as a tool that he uses to build his own sound, rather than having Hans's sound being the whole building. He makes a great deal of his music available for free download and I really think that you would like it.

billbrownmusic.com

I would reccomend the War Cue from Lady Death, The Battle March from Lady Death, the Intro Movie Music from Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Battle-Final Conflict from Lineage 2, and The Survivors from Trapped. (I would stay away from Hail the Victors from Lineage 2.... mostly because the director told him to figure out a way to mask the main theme from Lord of the Rings and throw it in there. It even sounded like Bill was hurting by having to do it)

I will be honest, he has signature sounds for different situations, so some of these tracks will seem vaguely similar. But it's all really good stuff.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoy and I'll try to properly respond to the rest of your message after I finally do get around to finishing up your request.

Take care,

Ken



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JimmyMac
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  In Response to:
Ethan Grover
Re: Batman Begins Score   Sunday, August 19, 2007 (12:22 p.m.) 

It was not Hans Zimmers score that made Batman Begins 'feel real' compared to the original Batman movie. It was down to the fact that the film itself was less comic book than Burtons original. In terms of the scores style, it was the same old Hans Zimmer cut and paste routine for the most part. Maybe it’s successful to Zimmer fans because they just get more of the standard Zimmer material they crave. I can understand that.

I’m not completely against Hans, but I have to admit that his style has grown very tiresome to me.



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Ivan orozco
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  In Response to:
Ken
Re: Batman Begins Score   Tuesday, January 31, 2006 (3:56 p.m.) 

> Yes, it truly is a shame that Elfman could not take score this film.
> However, I do believe that the Batman series did need a little bit of
> fresh air. This movie truly needed to be separate from the previous films
> in many fashions and having a different sound track composed was a major
> point on the checklist that I am glad Chris Nolan addressed. Unfortunatly,
> I couldn't disagree more with most of what you said afterwards. Weather
> Hans Zimmer has more or less experience is hardly of any consequence. It
> is the product, not the experience of the composer, that counts most. His
> score to Gladiator was original during Maximusís dying scenes, but other
> than that, it is (at its core) regurgitation of the final fire scene from
> Backdraft.

> Certainly the score for Batman Begins is a lot more effective than many of
> Hans's recent works (minus Tears of the Sun) but to be honest, I have to
> agree with the main review in that Zimmer didn't properly adjust himself
> and, like Horner when they give him time, simply regurgitated a lot of
> previously written material. This, to put it quite simply, just shows how
> truly unoriginal Hans has become.

> To take some of the pressure of this scores shortcomings off of Hans, I
> truly believe that the two-note motive (that serves as the primary theme)
> is entirely a result of James Newton Howards minimalist phase (trying to
> improve on his genious work on Signs.) That was one thing about the score
> that annoyed me the most. Only once did they even bother to change the
> chord when the second note was stated. This is a very lazy concept. And,
> while it did make for a great great moment when we first get to see a big
> shot of the Batcave, it still takes away from the rest of the score. Main
> themes that are that simplistic CANNOT be regurgitated time and time
> again, with no variation, and remain interesting. That is not a good
> product, and I truly believe that James Newton Howard should have been
> able to notice that the score was going in that very poor direction and
> put a stop to it.

> Once again, I left the theater with more of a feeling of bitterness and
> annoyance with the score than interest and a longing for more. What I
> heard was one of the most over-rated film scorers and one of the truly
> best film scorers just doing what they wanted. It truly was Hans Zimmer
> and James Newton Howard composing the score to Batman Begins. At least,
> with Danny Elfman, the main theme sounded like BATMAN composed by danny
> elfman. Understand the significant difference?? Danny Elfman re-invented
> himself as a composer while composing the original Batman Scores. And
> then, you have this score where neither composer makes any true effort to
> compose Batman. They just compose their stuff and thatís it. I understand
> that there is a certain amount of Zimmer or Howard to be expected whenever
> their name comes up on a screen. But to have a movie this good fall to the
> ďTitanicĒ mentality of a composer is just wrong.

> These are just my feelings about the score. I hope that I havenít offended
> anybody with them, and I hope they serve as good food for thought.

as a matter of fact ken you did you need to shut the hell up and enjoy this soundtrack for what it is you crybaby huh

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Andrew Edahl
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  In Response to:
Ivan orozco
Re: Batman Begins Score   Wednesday, March 1, 2006 (6:52 a.m.) 

> i strongly agree with you
amen... the first time i heard the soundtrack (Barabstella) I almost cried... music for me is like a second language... utterly unspeakably beautiful... working on transcribing the simple little piano interludes...
ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!!!

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Kiddo
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  In Response to:
Ethan
Re: Batman Begins Score   Saturday, July 1, 2006 (4:48 p.m.) 

Why are people still making the same point others have made? I used to complain about Elfman's themes being snubbed out but now Batman Begins is one of my favorite scores.

Still, why must people burden themselves arguing the point of who's score is better over and over?!

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