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Comments about the soundtrack for Batman Forever (Elliot Goldenthal)
Review Borders on Ignorance

Rod
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(kunde4399.alfanett.no)


  Responses to this Comment:
Markus D
Review Borders on Ignorance   Wednesday, May 28, 2003 (2:49 a.m.) 

It's always sad for me to read comments or reviews that show so little understanding of music trends and history. To call Goldenthal's orchestrations for just "noise" borders on ignorance. Goldentahl's music blends in a very personal way the styles of composers such as Strauss,Stravinsky, 20th Century Polish avangard, and Jazz. One can argue the qualities of the film, but to over simplify the qualities of the music is just not fair for what the composer is trying to do. Film composing is not just about writing catchy tunes and Goldenthal is one of the most original and brave composer I have seen in years.

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Markus D
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(webcache1.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de)

  In Response to:
Rod

  Responses to this Comment:
Mark - 224
Anteru
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Wednesday, May 28, 2003 (7:16 a.m.) 

Clemmensen's review of Batman Forever nearly states the exact same opinion as the one at Soundtrack Express, and when those two sites agree, they are always right. Clemmensen has also given high ratings to recent Goldenthal scores (four and five stars, who would have thought!) so you can't say that he is a Goldenthal hater anymore.


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Mark - 224
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ed.dk)

  In Response to:
Markus D
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Wednesday, May 28, 2003 (3:07 p.m.) 

Right....

And even though I only have heard the “Batman and Robin” score in the film it is still more charming than this one.

But as they say, “We all do mistakes. It makes one clever, not rich”.

I guess this was the case with Mr. Goldenthal in 1997.



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Anteru
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(pd9e9fa21.dip.t-dialin.net)

  In Response to:
Markus D

  Responses to this Comment:
Christian Clemmensen
Trackman 2000
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Friday, October 3, 2003 (5:20 a.m.) 

Good afternoon (here it is!).

"Clemmensen's review of Batman Forever nearly states the exact same opinion as the one at Soundtrack Express, and when those two sites agree, they are always right."

*Scream-to-heaven* God be merciful, he does not know, what he is writing!!!

If filmtracks.com and soundtrack-express were the non-plus-ultra in soundtrack-reviews, the twilight of the western world would have begun already . A review that has the ambition of beeing representative has to follow certain rules of objectivity. Filmtracks and Soundtrack-Express very often ignore these rules. Their reviews are polemic, inobjective, and very often purely false (mostly those of filmtracks, but also the Express has a tendency to that direction). It's not bad to know little about the works of music, but it's a shame, if you then still try to judge music, although you can only say what you like or dislike, without real objective reasons. But objectivity is the only thing that justyfies a review. Than the subtitle of the site should be "Modern Soundtrack Comments", so everybody know, that these are PERSONAL opinions, not objective recensions.

There are much better sites in the net than filmtracks, unfortunately not in English language, so many don't take notice of them. But also some anglo-american sites are very acurat and ambitious, when it comes to the attempt of being objective: musicfromthemovies.com or latterly also cinemusic.net for example.
That does not mean, that subjevtivity is abandoned from their reviews, but it has a much more humble value, than the objective criteria. And that's the way it should be. If you like it or not is not that important. Important is, if it's good qualitatively. After you stated that you can comment. But reviews by filmtracks ONLY comment, not value.

"Clemmensen has also given high ratings to recent Goldenthal scores (four and five stars, who would have thought!) so you can't say that he is a Goldenthal hater anymore."

You don't really think, that THIS does egalize the injustice, with which many Goldenthal-Scores are rated in here, which is a fact, do you?
TITUS, for example, is in many parts very challenging to the listener, but after some turns, it starts to work musically tremendously well. But it seems, that if it's a bit difficult for the first listen, it's very often already bad in filtracks' opinion. You really can find this regularity in many reviews. And beacause Goldenthal's music is very often some kind of bulky but yet still reveals its quality after some listening-turns (TITUS, ALIEN³, INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE, IN DREAMS), the reviews and ratings are, according to this, very amiss.
Thanks,
Anteeru

-----------------------------------------------------
NP: THE ILLUSTRATED MAN (Jerry Goldsmith)


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Christian Clemmensen
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  In Response to:
Anteru

  Responses to this Comment:
Ramin
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Monday, October 13, 2003 (8:30 p.m.) 

> If filmtracks.com and soundtrack-express were the non-plus-ultra in
> soundtrack-reviews, the twilight of the western world would have begun
> already . A review that has the ambition of beeing representative has to
> follow certain rules of objectivity.

So the end of our civilation will commence because us English speakers aren't afraid of having opinions?

> Filmtracks and Soundtrack-Express
> very often ignore these rules. Their reviews are polemic, inobjective, and
> very often purely false.

It's a shame I'm not charging you to read them, eh?

> It's not bad to know little about the
> works of music, but it's a shame, if you then still try to judge music,
> although you can only say what you like or dislike, without real objective
> reasons.

Don't let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out...

Christian



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Ramin
(212.154.225.80.dial.online.kz)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Wednesday, January 5, 2005 (4:09 a.m.) 

Christian Clemmensen is an IDIOT!!! His awful reviews for such a great score like Batman Forever, Batman & Robin gives 3 and 2 stars. This is the terrible website in the world.

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Trackman 2000
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  In Response to:
Anteru
Re: You say that just because you disagree with the review   Monday, October 30, 2006 (3:51 a.m.) 

Well, I do appreciate the rant (an honest burst of personal opinion never hurt anyone), but I do believe that you've got the definition of "review" all wrong.

>A review that has the ambition of beeing representative has to follow certain rules of objectivity. Filmtracks and Soundtrack-Express very often ignore these rules.

Yes, in theory, a "good" review requires some decent amount of objectivity... but what is that? To say that objectivity measures only the technical quality and not the enjoyment factor of music is not only subjective in itself, but begs the question of "so, what defines technical mastery in music, anyway?" One could make substantial argument that Batman Beyond and Crusade: Babylon 5 are the most technically magnificient pieces in history... though believe me, that's not an argument I'll ever be attempting to make.

>Their reviews are polemic, inobjective, and very often purely false (mostly those of filmtracks, but also the Express has a tendency to that direction).

"Purely false"? It's nice to know that ou hold you're own opinion in such high regard, though I do admit I question the objectivity.

>It's not bad to know little about the works of music, but it's a shame, if you then still try to judge music, although you can only say what you like or dislike, without real objective reasons. But objectivity is the only thing that justyfies a review. Than the subtitle of the site should be "Modern Soundtrack Comments", so everybody know, that these are PERSONAL opinions, not objective recensions.

The bottom line is that music is an art, meant to be enjoyed, appreciated, disliked, or unappreciated based on our own reactions, not by their Universal Quality Standard Rating (UQSR, I suppose) as ordained by God and guarded vigilantly by the sacred protectors or true reviewdom... Riviews are, by their very nature, opinions written by people that, for some reason or the other, have the reputation of knowing what they're talking about. Every review author knows this, as well as most readers. I honestly can't say I really enjoyed Batman Forever... I'm listening to it now, and I still don't enjoy it. But that's why I use this site. I've found my own taste's close enough to Mr. Clemmensen's that I can expect a fair amount of personal accuracy from the reviews he writes. If you disagree with his opinions, you are free to seek another site that better matches yours. Just be aware that, in the world of reviews, where opinions are absolute and everyone is free to some sort of personal correctness, disagreement is welcome and, if it has reason behind it, even friendily encouraged. But condemnation and self-absorbtion are not... the seeking of absolutes through opinion is, after all, one of the truest forms of ignorance.


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