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Comments about the soundtrack for Braveheart (James Horner)
(Comment Deleted by Poster)

Michael Björk
(c213-200-154-221.cm-upc.chello.se)


  Responses to this Comment:
roybatty
Mystic
(Comment Deleted by Poster)   Saturday, September 28, 2002 (3:12 a.m.) 



(Comment Deleted by Poster)




roybatty
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  In Response to:
Michael Björk

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Niece
anonymous
Richard Kleiner
Re: The Planets. Holst is the real thief!!   Monday, October 9, 2006 (8:49 p.m.) 

> Nice score, but Horner has stolen som notes from Holsts suite The Planets
> - "Jupiter".

Before you get into that, check out the amazing similarity between the "Jupiter" and Hubert Parry's hymn "Jerusalem" composed in 1916, bearing in mind that "The Planets" was in 1919!!!!! So it looks as if 'ol Gustav, THE GREAT COMPOSER, is actually more of a thief than James Horner in this case!!

However, on the other hand it does sound like Horner spent a lot of time listening to traditional Celtic-Scottish music before he did this score as its influence is clear thruought. For example, he seems to have based the William Wallace theme on an old traditional Scottish song called "And I'l get to Scotland afore'ye". It has the same overall shape but he's arranged it differently so that it sounds heroic and triumphant.



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Niece
(89-180-15-207.net.novis.pt)

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roybatty

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roybatty
Jeremy
Dont be an idiot   Saturday, February 3, 2007 (5:03 a.m.) 

Horner has stolen the theme. The similarities are obvious. Holst or Parry, I really dont care. That doesn´t make him less than a thief.

> Before you get into that, check out the amazing similarity between the
> "Jupiter" and Hubert Parry's hymn "Jerusalem" composed
> in 1916, bearing in mind that "The Planets" was in 1919!!!!! So
> it looks as if 'ol Gustav, THE GREAT COMPOSER, is actually more of a thief
> than James Horner in this case!!

> However, on the other hand it does sound like Horner spent a lot of time
> listening to traditional Celtic-Scottish music before he did this score as
> its influence is clear thruought. For example, he seems to have based the
> William Wallace theme on an old traditional Scottish song called "And
> I'l get to Scotland afore'ye". It has the same overall shape but he's
> arranged it differently so that it sounds heroic and triumphant.



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roybatty
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Niece

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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Saturday, February 10, 2007 (7:46 p.m.) 

> Horner has stolen the theme. The similarities are obvious. Holst or Parry,
> I really dont care. That doesn´t make him less than a thief.

I realise that Horner is guilty of theft here, but are you really saying that it makes no difference that Holst did the same?? Without meaning to justify Horner's steal, I'm just trying to put things in a fair perspective. I mean, there has been a lot of fuss made in the decade since Braveheart about how Horner pinched the melody from Holst. But in the near-century since The Planets, it is never admitted that the "Jupiter Hymn" itself is obviously a plagiarism/recycling of an earlier work. By another composer.


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Niece
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roybatty

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roybatty
Re: Dont be an idiot   Tuesday, February 20, 2007 (6:29 a.m.) 

> I realise that Horner is guilty of theft here, but are you really saying
> that it makes no difference that Holst did the same?? Without meaning to
> justify Horner's steal, I'm just trying to put things in a fair
> perspective. I mean, there has been a lot of fuss made in the decade since
> Braveheart about how Horner pinched the melody from Holst. But in the
> near-century since The Planets, it is never admitted that the
> "Jupiter Hymn" itself is obviously a plagiarism/recycling of an
> earlier work. By another composer.

Completely irrelevant to this case. This is a site for discussing film music. We are talking about James Horner not Gustav Holst.



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roybatty
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Niece

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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Wednesday, February 21, 2007 (5:23 a.m.) 

> Completely irrelevant to this case. This is a site for discussing film
> music. We are talking about James Horner not Gustav Holst.

This is just dishonest nonsense. We are not talking about Gustav Holst??? The original poster (correctly) asserted that James Horner has "stolen some notes " from Holst's "Jupiter", but I belive that that melody is already closely patterned after an earlier work. This is HARDLY irrelevant!!!! If, for example, an architect were taken to court for allegedly stealing another architect's designs and it later transpired that those designs were originally stolen from the earlier workings of another person, this factor would have to be taken into consideration! True it would not dilute or justify the actions of the second thief but you would have to investigate both - maybe as seaperate cases but both would have to be dealt with. But, of course, you've subtly put a stopper on this by by saying that this is a site strictly limited to discussing film music - a cheap tactic. Claiming that something is a plagiarism of another thing automatically calls into question the reliability of both materials. You cannot surpress or wilfully ignore new information simply because you are uncomfortable with what it implies.


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Niece
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roybatty

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roybatty
Re: Dont be an idiot   Thursday, February 22, 2007 (12:56 p.m.) 

It is irrelevant. Dont you see? What we are discussing is Horner´s plagiarism. Period. The theme is not of his authorship. If is from Parry, Holst or [bleep!]ing Palestrina, it doesnt matter. It doesn´t matter which was his source. He claimed that a melody that already existed was his. That´s the only question here.



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roybatty
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Niece

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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Tuesday, February 27, 2007 (5:19 a.m.) 

> It is irrelevant. Dont you see? What we are discussing is Horner´s
> plagiarism. Period. The theme is not of his authorship. If is from Parry,
> Holst or [bleep!]ing Palestrina, it doesnt matter. It doesn´t matter which
> was his source. He claimed that a melody that already existed was his.
> That´s the only question here.

Well, that's NOT THE ONLY QUESTION: this is meant to be a discussion not a court case. There is a huge difference between holding a discussion and simply asserting something. Besides, I AM talking about Horner's plagiarism, and what I'm saying is this: seeing as even some classical composers based their tunes on pre-existing music that they admired, does it ultimately really matter that much if Horner did borrow a little hook from Holst? Another example would be that Horner's "William Wallace Theme" in Braveheart is obviously modelled on the old scottish song "Lochlomond". Whatever your view on this is, whether you think it constitutes plafiarism or not, you must take on board the fact that composers have always incorporated folk music into the fabric of their work, especially composers like Gustav Holst. So, my response to the question conerning Horner and The Planets is to say that on Braveheart, Horner is just working in the same way as they did so why the big song and dance??

(Message edited on Tuesday, February 27, 2007, at 7:03 a.m.)


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Niece
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roybatty

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roybatty
Re: Dont be an idiot   Tuesday, February 27, 2007 (2:28 p.m.) 

You are out of your mind. One thing is direct quotation or adaptation of folk music, something that milions of composers did with very specific reasons in mind, from Brahms to Ives. Other thing is plagiarism. When Bartok used a folk melody he didnt say it was his melody. He said it was his arrangement of a pre-existing melody. Horner never said something like that. He simply stole one piece of music that already existed and tried to pass it as his own, one thing that he is constantly doing. Please cut the crap.



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roybatty
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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Tuesday, February 27, 2007 (8:35 p.m.) 

> You are out of your mind. One thing is direct quotation or adaptation of
> folk music, something that milions of composers did with very specific
> reasons in mind, from Brahms to Ives. Other thing is plagiarism. When
> Bartok used a folk melody he didnt say it was his melody. He said it was
> his arrangement of a pre-existing melody. Horner never said something like
> that. He simply stole one piece of music that already existed and tried to
> pass it as his own, one thing that he is constantly doing. Please cut the
> crap.

They didn't always credit the source and there were not always specific purposes. In my opinion, a good example of plagiarism is the clarinet theme from Horner's "An American Tail", which, despite some differences, is obviously taken from the first measures of Borodin's "Steppes of Central Asia". Other examples would be the Braveheart/Jupiter case and Willow/Schumann's Third. By the same rationale, however, I have to admit that, for example, the melody of Holst's "In The Bleak Midwinter" is virtually the same melody as that of the second movement "Largo" of Dvorak's Ninth. As far as I know, Holst never gave reasons for this even though the similarity is unmistakable. Another example (off the top of my mind)is that the theme from Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty is very similar to the "Morning" section/Morning Mood from Grieg's Peer Gynt. Again, there is no specific reason for this other than that it is a catchy hook and sounds good. But you will never hear people calling Holst or Tchaikovsky plagiarists even though the level of similarity in both aforementioned cases is the same as with Horner, i.e. not exactly identical, but ripping-off the hook of the tune and stealing the structure. My point is this: if they (and others) can get away with this then why can't Horner be excused his borrowings, seeing as he doesn't steal as much nor as often as people like to make seem.


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Niece
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  In Response to:
roybatty

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roybatty
Re: Dont be an idiot   Wednesday, February 28, 2007 (1:10 a.m.) 

> They didn't always credit the source and there were not always specific
> purposes. In my opinion, a good example of plagiarism is the clarinet
> theme from Horner's "An American Tail", which, despite some
> differences, is obviously taken from the first measures of Borodin's
> "Steppes of Central Asia". Other examples would be the
> Braveheart/Jupiter case and Willow/Schumann's Third. By the same
> rationale, however, I have to admit that, for example, the melody of
> Holst's "In The Bleak Midwinter" is virtually the same melody as
> that of the second movement "Largo" of Dvorak's Ninth. As far as
> I know, Holst never gave reasons for this even though the similarity is
> unmistakable. Another example (off the top of my mind)is that the theme
> from Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty is very similar to the
> "Morning" section/Morning Mood from Grieg's Peer Gynt. Again,
> there is no specific reason for this other than that it is a catchy hook
> and sounds good. But you will never hear people calling Holst or
> Tchaikovsky plagiarists even though the level of similarity in both
> aforementioned cases is the same as with Horner, i.e. not exactly
> identical, but ripping-off the hook of the tune and stealing the
> structure. My point is this: if they (and others) can get away with this
> then why can't Horner be excused his borrowings, seeing as he doesn't
> steal as much nor as often as people like to make seem.

Actually, classical composers are also constantly accused of plagiarism. Handel is the most famous example. 45% of his tunes are based on pre-existing music. They also commit that crime. But that doesn´t make Horner´s crime less despicable. And yes, he is constantly stealing.

There´s nothing in Sleeping Beauty remotely similar to the Morning Mood from Peer Gynt. If you want to make an accusation do it right and give the proper examples.


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roybatty
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Niece

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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Wednesday, February 28, 2007 (8:54 a.m.) 

> Actually, classical composers are also constantly accused of plagiarism.
> Handel is the most famous example. 45% of his tunes are based on
> pre-existing music. They also commit that crime. But that doesn´t make
> Horner´s crime less despicable. And yes, he is constantly stealing.

> There´s nothing in Sleeping Beauty remotely similar to the Morning Mood
> from Peer Gynt. If you want to make an accusation do it right and give the
> proper examples.

Can you offer many examples of things that Horner has stolen, then? It seems to me the words "Horner" and "Thief" have become almost synonymous due to the huge issue people make out of all the aforementioned examples. But when I pause and think over it, I can't myself think of that many more exept from some obvious cribs from Prokofiev, e.g. Troy, when Horner was working under severe time constraints as a replacement composer. All in all, though, I think I could probably name more things that John Williams has stolen or even Hans Zimmer probably.


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Niece
(87-196-201-31.net.novis.pt)

  In Response to:
roybatty

  Responses to this Comment:
roybatty
Kevin Smith
Re: Dont be an idiot   Wednesday, February 28, 2007 (11:42 a.m.) 

> Can you offer many examples of things that Horner has stolen, then? It
> seems to me the words "Horner" and "Thief" have become
> almost synonymous due to the huge issue people make out of all the
> aforementioned examples. But when I pause and think over it, I can't
> myself think of that many more exept from some obvious cribs from
> Prokofiev, e.g. Troy, when Horner was working under severe time
> constraints as a replacement composer. All in all, though, I think I could
> probably name more things that John Williams has stolen or even Hans
> Zimmer probably.

You cannot be serious. Horner is the most famous example of plagiarism in film music.

-Willow - Schumann symphony nº3, first movement
-Braveheart - Holst or Parry, I just don care
-Enemy At the gates - Schindler´s list, main theme
-All the Kings Men - Brahms symphony nº3, third movement
-Troy - Shostakovich 5th, fourth movement (heroic theme); V.Williams Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis (the love theme)
-The famous four-notes motif - Rachmaninov symphony nº1, it appear in all the movements, the Dies Irae motif, go hear it
-An American Tail - you already said it
-Read Heat - Prokofiev Cantata for the 20th anniversary of October Revolution



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roybatty
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Niece

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Janice Elleray
Re: Dont be an idiot   Wednesday, February 28, 2007 (6:17 p.m.) 

> You cannot be serious. Horner is the most famous example of plagiarism in
> film music.

> -Willow - Schumann symphony nº3, first movement
> -Braveheart - Holst or Parry, I just don care
> -Enemy At the gates - Schindler´s list, main theme
> -All the Kings Men - Brahms symphony nº3, third movement
> -Troy - Shostakovich 5th, fourth movement (heroic theme); V.Williams
> Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis (the love theme)
> -The famous four-notes motif - Rachmaninov symphony nº1, it appear in all
> the movements, the Dies Irae motif, go hear it
> -An American Tail - you already said it
> -Read Heat - Prokofiev Cantata for the 20th anniversary of October
> Revolution

You're leaving out Aliens and Gayaneh (Khakachurian), and Titanic: Southampton and "Book of Days" by Enya from Far and Away (although this was frankly an improvement if you ask me). But, really, is that the lot? I don't think that there is more there than what John Williams, Hans Zimmer or Howard Shore have pinched for their scores. Take Williams for example:

-Star Wars Theme - King's Row (Korngold)

-Resistence Theme - Dukas, The Sorcerer's Apprentice

-Darth Vader Theme - Chopin, Funeral March (not fully identical, but

close enough)

-The Throne Room - Elgar, Pomp and Circumstance Marches

-Duel of the Fates - Dvorak's Ninth, Third Movement + Sibelius's Second,

Fourth Movement

-Schindler's List - Mahler, Symphony No. 8

-Jaws Shark Theme - Dvorak's 9th, Movement 4

Out to Sea Theme - "Peter and the Wolf", Prokofiev

-Jurassic Park - Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No.3 in D. (Tweaked and slow

down the tempo.)

I could probably go on by saying that the E.T. Theme is taken from Dvorak's Dumky Trio but I have only read about this on another board and haven't actually heared that piece. Wouldn't surprise me if it were true,though. Also, Horner isn't the only one to have pinched from The Planets: the battle/war music in Zimmer's Gladiator borrows wholesale from the "Mars" section, and I also noticed that the "History of the Ring Theme" from Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings closely resembles the main motif in "Venus, Bringer of Peace". This latter is seldom, if ever, mentioned anywhere. But perhaps the line of influence goes back further than Holst.

(Message edited on Sunday, April 1, 2007, at 9:22 a.m.)


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Janice Elleray
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roybatty
Re: Dont be an idiot   Monday, March 17, 2008 (6:05 p.m.) 

> You're leaving out Aliens and Gayaneh (Khakachurian), and Titanic:
> Southampton and "Book of Days" by Enya from Far and Away
> (although this was frankly an improvement if you ask me). But, really, is
> that the lot? I don't think that there is more there than what John
> Williams, Hans Zimmer or Howard Shore have pinched for their scores. Take
> Williams for example:

> -Star Wars Theme - King's Row (Korngold)

> -Resistence Theme - Dukas, The Sorcerer's Apprentice

> -Darth Vader Theme - Chopin, Funeral March (not fully identical, but

> close enough)

> -The Throne Room - Elgar, Pomp and Circumstance Marches

> -Duel of the Fates - Dvorak's Ninth, Third Movement + Sibelius's Second,

> Fourth Movement

> -Schindler's List - Mahler, Symphony No. 8

> -Jaws Shark Theme - Dvorak's 9th, Movement 4

> Out to Sea Theme - "Peter and the Wolf", Prokofiev

> -Jurassic Park - Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No.3 in D. (Tweaked and slow

> down the tempo.)

> I could probably go on by saying that the E.T. Theme is taken from
> Dvorak's Dumky Trio but I have only read about this on another board and
> haven't actually heared that piece. Wouldn't surprise me if it were
> true,though. Also, Horner isn't the only one to have pinched from The
> Planets: the battle/war music in Zimmer's Gladiator borrows wholesale from
> the "Mars" section, and I also noticed that the "History of
> the Ring Theme" from Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings closely
> resembles the main motif in "Venus, Bringer of Peace". This
> latter is seldom, if ever, mentioned anywhere. But perhaps the line of
> influence goes back further than Holst.

I've just listened to the funeral march and to be frank, I've got no idea what you're talking about. Dath Vader's Theme? I take it you're talking about the Imperial March - it sounds nothing like it in any way shape or form. It's playing now!!



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Kevin Smith
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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Friday, June 1, 2007 (5:56 p.m.) 

> You cannot be serious. Horner is the most famous example of plagiarism in
> film music.

> -Willow - Schumann symphony nº3, first movement
> -Braveheart - Holst or Parry, I just don care
> -Enemy At the gates - Schindler´s list, main theme
> -All the Kings Men - Brahms symphony nº3, third movement
> -Troy - Shostakovich 5th, fourth movement (heroic theme); V.Williams
> Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis (the love theme)
> -The famous four-notes motif - Rachmaninov symphony nº1, it appear in all
> the movements, the Dies Irae motif, go hear it
> -An American Tail - you already said it
> -Read Heat - Prokofiev Cantata for the 20th anniversary of October
> Revolution

Enemy at the Gates and Schindler's List medleys are based on Mahler's 8th Symphony.



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Jeremy
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Niece
Re: Dont be an idiot   Friday, August 17, 2007 (9:07 p.m.) 

> Horner has stolen the theme. The similarities are obvious. Holst or Parry,
> I really dont care. That doesn't make him less than a thief.

I wrote a violin sonata last year with this awesome subject (motif) in b minor that was premiered on front of a small audience of my peers and professors in November 2006. This theme was completely original, easy to manipulate contrapuntally, and it helped me win one of my two composition awards for my final year of studies. Imagine how distraught I was when this theme appeared in Hans Zimmer's score to The Simpsons movie. As a composer and appreciator of music, I just have to accept that sometimes things turn out to be a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE and to get upset over it is a waste of time.

Does Horner rip off other composers in addition to himself? Yes. Did he rip of Holst? Probably. Do other composers do this? Definitely. Could it just be a coincidence? Perhaps. Who cares? If it turns out Holst ripped off some folk tune (he did) is it any less great music? No, so why should Horner's be?

I have over 200 scores (95% are pre-2000) and Braveheart is my favourite of all time. I don't care how similar it is to Holst, Glory, The Perfect Storm, Bicentennial Man, Scottish traditional music, etc...



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anonymous
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roybatty

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roybatty
Re: The Planets. Holst is "not" the real thief!!   Friday, March 30, 2007 (3:07 p.m.) 

>If you check the article entitled "The Planets" found on Wikipedia, Holst's "The Planets" was written between 1914 and 1916. In fact, the first performance was in 1918 in London's Royal Albert Hall, conducted by Sir Adrian Boult. If Holst completed the suite in 1916, how could he have stolen parts of "Jupiter" it from Parry's "Jerusalem"?



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roybatty
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anonymous
Re: The Planets. Holst is "not" the real thief!!   Friday, March 30, 2007 (5:27 p.m.) 

According to WIKIPEDIA, there was no performance of The Planets until 1918 and no public performance until 1920, so it's quite possible that the "Jupiter Hymn" - a piece which exists in isolation from the rest of the Jupiter movement - was interpolated at a later stage. Parry actually died in 1916 so if he didn't a) personally know Holst and had access to his work, or b) employed spies it would obviously have been impossible for him steal the tune from Holst as he wasn't alive when it was (supposedly) performed. It's not entirely impossible that it was a coincidence but this is highly improbable because both pieces are so very similar.

EDIT: I was in error. Parry died in 1918, not 1916. But, Jerusalem is still down as 1916 so SOMEONE was a thieving little magpie and my guess is that it was not Parry. However, my initial intention was to ask: isn't it a little strange that the similarity between these pieces of music is never remarked upon (not even when they are played at the same occasions/events), yet a lot of people have said that Braveheart is similar to "Jupiter"?


(Message edited on Wednesday, April 11, 2007, at 5:49 a.m.)


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Richard Kleiner
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roybatty
Re: The Planets. Holst is the real thief!!   Saturday, April 18, 2009 (8:30 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: Theme from Angela's Ashesm which reminds me of Neptune  

Not entirely related, but when I hear Mercury, I'm more than positive that I heard it before in a movie.
I'm blocked, and I don't seem to remember which movie is it from. Have you heard it somewhere?



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Mystic
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sbcglobal.net)

  In Response to:
Michael Björk

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Kevin Smith
No.   Sunday, May 20, 2007 (5:16 p.m.) 

Every piece of music ever written has "stolen notes" from other music. This is ridiculous. Since there are a limited number of pitches and combinations of them, ultimately there is no such thing as stealing music.

Even if the similarities are extremely numerous, that has nothing to do with plagiarism. That would be a coincidence, or even more likely, an overlap of the collective unconscious, which connects all human beings as one. We all get ideas from the same source ultimately, you see? So when it comes to art, there is really no such thing as stealing.



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Kevin Smith
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  In Response to:
Mystic
Re: No.   Saturday, September 22, 2007 (10:13 a.m.) 

> Every piece of music ever written has "stolen notes" from other
> music. This is ridiculous. Since there are a limited number of pitches and
> combinations of them, ultimately there is no such thing as stealing music.

> Even if the similarities are extremely numerous, that has nothing to do
> with plagiarism. That would be a coincidence, or even more likely, an
> overlap of the collective unconscious, which connects all human beings as
> one. We all get ideas from the same source ultimately, you see? So when it
> comes to art, there is really no such thing as stealing.

The first three notes of the love theme are the same from Jupiter. That's it, three notes. The rest of it is only superifically similar, on closer listen they are much different.


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rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of Christian Clemmensen at Filmtracks Publications. Scoreboard created 7/24/98 and last updated 4/25/15.