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Comments about the soundtrack for Crimson Tide (Hans Zimmer)
don't waste your money.

Kyri
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  Responses to this Comment:
Levente Benedek
Mark
Silentfurymm
Lee
Adam P.
byro
Adam P.
Steve
Kyri
don't waste your money.   Tuesday, March 26, 2002 (9:28 p.m.) 

If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't waste your money on this.

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Levente Benedek
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Saturday, April 6, 2002 (1:04 p.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

Why? It is expensive?

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Levente Benedek

  Responses to this Comment:
Levente Benedek
Blake
Re: don't waste your money.   Saturday, April 6, 2002 (5:41 p.m.) 

Don't

> Why? It is expensive?

i don't quite understand what you mean. My point is that the above score is nothing special compositionwise. You might argue, but oh well that's the truth. The three composers posted above are the composers who actually write something with meaning.


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Levente Benedek
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
cmac
Re: don't waste your money.   Monday, April 15, 2002 (4:46 a.m.) 

> Don't

> i don't quite understand what you mean. My point is that the above score
> is nothing special compositionwise. You might argue, but oh well that's
> the truth. The three composers posted above are the composers who actually
> write something with meaning.

I agree with you that this composers are great, but I don't think that they can make this kind of music. It is so good. But it is my oppinion. You should think it again what you say, maybe if you listen it again and again. And if you ask someone here, I think he will say it the same.

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cmac
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  In Response to:
Levente Benedek

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Friday, October 22, 2004 (4:34 p.m.) 

Kyri, if there's one thing I know it's that music - all music - is subjective, when all is said and done. One man's meat is another man's poison, and you're arguing from an untenable position ie. no-one can ever prove scientifically that any piece of music is "great", therefore your opinion, and that's all it is, has no more or less merit than anyone elses. It matters not a whit whether you're a music student or an astronaut because if one looked around a bit one could find many other music students who do not think that Goldenthal is as good as you do. One can say with certainty that 2+2=4 because that can be proved, one cannot say with certainty that Goldenthal is better than Zimmer because that cannot be proved. All anyone can say when it comes to matters of taste is what their preference is. And it is my personal opinion that you have acted and continue to act in an arrogant, elitest, and insulting manner towards the other people in this forum. Thankyou for your time.


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Kyri
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om)

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cmac
you are right   Monday, March 13, 2006 (9:57 p.m.) 

I started this thread about 5 years ago and now that i come back and look at the kinds of opinion i posted and the way i did it makes me want to throw up..
In actuality, i still do stand behind some of the opinions i expressed, however i HATE the way i expressed them. Zimmer is not my favorite composer by any means but that doesn't mean i can behave in such arrogant and ignorant manner towards other people. In the last five years of being in the USA as a music student i think i learned a lot more about things. Most importantly I learned how to appreciate things for what they are. I now realize that the things i wrote on this thread in the past were immature and i'm actually embarrassed reading them..!
Well, we all grow up eventually.

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Blake
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Adam P.
That's your opinion, buddy.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (2:22 p.m.) 

> Don't

> i don't quite understand what you mean. My point is that the above score
> is nothing special compositionwise. You might argue, but oh well that's
> the truth. The three composers posted above are the composers who actually
> write something with meaning.

I think that this score is VERY special. What do you think makes it so popular? The main theme is awesome, I also love the ISQ track, trying listening to it while you're driving at night! This soundtrack is an amazing listening experience. If you also like action queues, this has some great ones.

And, by the way, sir, your comments are just your OPINION. Just because you don't think its special, doesn't make it not special to someone ELSE. Everbody has preferences to what music they like. So please stop acting like a wiseguy who has, qoute:"the truth" Thanks.

So, anyone who's interested in getting this CD, listen to the audio clips, and if you think you like what you hear... GET IT! YOU WON'T REGRET IT!

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Blake

  Responses to this Comment:
Blake
Re: That's your opinion, buddy.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (6:36 p.m.) 

> I think that this score is VERY special. What do you think makes it so
> popular? If you also like action queues, this has
> some great ones.
> And, by the way, sir, your comments are just your OPINION. Just because
> you don't think its special, doesn't make it not special to someone ELSE.
> Everbody has preferences to what music they like. So please stop acting
> like a wiseguy who has, qoute:"the truth" Thanks.

You cannot measure the quality of a score by its popularity. Lets take for example Goldenthal's score to "Alien 3." It is a masterpiece of Contemporary music but quite unfortunately not as popular. People who know about this score often regard it as mere noise. Big mistake.
Oh, and about me stating my opinions...well let's just say that i care about what people listen to and more generally about the future of film music.
"Just because you don't think its special, doesn't make it not special to someone ELSE." I think you may have misunderstood my intentions. I am talking about film music as a form of ART. And whereas the particular score might fit the movie very well, there are other composers out there who write their music at a different, more mature level.



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Blake
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: You cannot measure the quality...   Monday, April 29, 2002 (9:58 a.m.) 

> You cannot measure the quality of a score by its popularity. Lets take for
> example Goldenthal's score to "Alien 3." It is a masterpiece of
> Contemporary music but quite unfortunately not as popular. People who know
> about this score often regard it as mere noise. Big mistake.
Oh, and
> about me stating my opinions...well let's just say that i care about what
> people listen to and more generally about the future of film music.
>
"Just because you don't think its special, doesn't make it not
> special to someone ELSE." I think you may have misunderstood my
> intentions. I am talking about film music as a form of ART. And whereas
> the particular score might fit the movie very well, there are other
> composers out there who write their music at a different, more mature
> level.

I didn't say you could measure the quality by popularity, all I said was that the popularity has to mean SOMETHING. But I understand where you're coming from. You're one of those "serious" music people. Modern orchestral music with complicated screaching chords. Not particluarly pleasant to the ears, but if you listen to it enough, you can see the order in all the chaos. Personally, I like some of those too, but after a while, they get tiring, more new screaches with no melody, and I consider melody a necessary part in music. Keep listening to Crimson Tide, and It'll eventually sink in. I've always considered music as a way enjoyment, as all the ARTS are. No one could write this soundrack except Hans Zimmer, and it's very enjoyable. This soundtrack Is art. And if mature music is a bunch of dissonant chords with no melody, just new ways of banging a bow on a violin or cello, I'd rather be a two year old sucking my thumb for the rest of my life.

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Blake

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
moviemonger
moviemonger
Re: You cannot measure the quality...   Monday, April 29, 2002 (10:28 a.m.) 

1: Personally, I like some of those too, but after a
> while, they get tiring, more new screaches with no melody, and I consider
> melody a necessary part in music.

2: No one could write this soundrack except Hans Zimmer,
> and it's very enjoyable.

3: This soundtrack Is art.

4: And if mature music is a
> bunch of dissonant chords with no melody, just new ways of banging a bow
> on a violin or cello, I'd rather be a two year old sucking my thumb for
> the rest of my life.

1:Are you implying that Elliot Goldenthal's music has no lyricism or melody in it? hmmmmm.....
2:True...that's because not many people WANT to write this kind of music.
3:Well, it might be art, but is it ART MUSIC? There is a huge difference in that...
4:I didn't say that the only mature music is Contemporary music...I don't recall Williams's or Goldsmith's music being extremely atonal....And i really don't like this synthesizer c*** that Zimmer composes. If you want to see some really good use of synthesizers, try the beginning of Alien3. Just listen to how those added elements blend with the sound of the orchestra and the images. Not just "....oh, WOW that beat there is SOOOOO COOL...""....WOW Zimmer does it again..bla bla bla..." Come on....i mean, it's like listening to more refined techno...Don't tell me you consider techno ART MUSIC....
Just try listening to it more carefully.

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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Kyri

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Kyri
Re: You cannot measure the quality...   Wednesday, July 31, 2002 (10:37 a.m.) 

> 1:Are you implying that Elliot Goldenthal's music has no lyricism or
> melody in it? hmmmmm.....
2:True...that's because not many people WANT
> to write this kind of music.
3:Well, it might be art, but is it ART
> MUSIC? There is a huge difference in that...
4:I didn't say that the
> only mature music is Contemporary music...I don't recall Williams's or
> Goldsmith's music being extremely atonal....And i really don't like this
> synthesizer c*** that Zimmer composes. If you want to see some really good
> use of synthesizers, try the beginning of Alien3. Just listen to how those
> added elements blend with the sound of the orchestra and the images. Not
> just "....oh, WOW that beat there is SOOOOO
> COOL...""....WOW Zimmer does it again..bla bla bla..." Come
> on....i mean, it's like listening to more refined techno...Don't tell me
> you consider techno ART MUSIC....
Just try listening to it more
> carefully.

I must say that I read this thread with growing interest. But it became a "who's better" rant. Personally, I'm against such rants.

Both of you are right. As a Latin proverb says: "De gustibus non disputandum" (if you don't know Latin it's you don't discuss your gusto"). You prefer Goldenthal, Blake prefers Zimmer. Personally I agree with the latter.

Yes, I tried to listen to Alien 3, but I was looking for some horror fragments (I try to score a satanic horror, so I look for inspiration). I haven't listened into it. But I'll try.

Don't offend Zimmer's synthesizers, because it is his mastery. Zimmer wrote more orchestral scores. Listen to The Thin Red Line and Hannibal, keyboards were put off in these scores.

Zimmer is not a great orchestrator, I know that. But he's getting better. The Peacemaker is much better orchestrally than Crimson Tide, but worse thematically. Goldenthal is good orchestrally. His scores are dodecaphonic, though (please correct my spelling, if I'm wrong). In other words you prefer contemporary works (Williams, Schoenberg, early Penderecki, maybe Lutoslawski) than classical (Mozart) or romantic (Berlioz or Dvorak). As you wrote, Goldenthal wrote some serious work himself.

Every composer seeks inspiration in serious works, for instance Zimmer in Hannibal was inspired by Bach, Mahler and Strauss). I don't know where does Goldenthal. I might be interested in his credentials, so I'll be happy to get some info.

And if you want some atonality, harshness in Zimmer scores, listen to Black Hawk Down.

And one request: don't offend other composers and their their fans. It's just wrong.

Thanks for reading, Pawel.

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
Zimmer and Goldenthal   Thursday, August 1, 2002 (4:46 a.m.) 

> I must say that I read this thread with growing interest. But it became a
> "who's better" rant. Personally, I'm against such rants.

We got over all of that. Try reading the more recent posts.

Goldenthal is good orchestrally. His scores are
> dodecaphonic, though (please correct my spelling, if I'm wrong). In other
> words you prefer contemporary works (Williams, Schoenberg, early
> Penderecki, maybe Lutoslawski) than classical (Mozart) or romantic
> (Berlioz or Dvorak). As you wrote, Goldenthal wrote some serious work
> himself.

Wrong. I prefer any kind of music when the music is done good. I enjoy listening to Contemporary music the same way as i enjoy studying classical(i'm a music student). It's just that i can tell when i listen to serious music that's serious. And it's not just me saying that, because i find Goldenthal' music more to my taste. When i listen to his music(not just film scores) i find that i get rewarded once i understand it. Try it.It's a very unique feeling.

> Every composer seeks inspiration in serious works, for instance Zimmer in
> Hannibal was inspired by Bach, Mahler and Strauss).

Yes, but when you listen to a lot of classical music you will discover that Zimmer all he does is basically copy those composers (like Horner). I don't find that his works have a very distinctive neoclassical style that will persuade me (you might say they do, but IMHO Goldenthal does it way better). Take for example Mr.Goldenthal's Final Fantasy score: He uses 19th Century Straussian orchestration with heavy brass, yet you can very distinctively hear that it is Goldenthal music. It has a certain style that persuades you as a listener.

Thanks for reading.

k


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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Kyri

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Kyri
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Friday, August 2, 2002 (8:41 a.m.) 

> We got over all of that. Try reading the more recent posts.

I was talking about your correspondence with Blake particularly.

> Wrong. I prefer any kind of music when the music is done good. I enjoy
> listening to Contemporary music the same way as i enjoy studying
> classical(i'm a music student). It's just that i can tell when i listen to
> serious music that's serious. And it's not just me saying that, because i
> find Goldenthal' music more to my taste. When i listen to his music(not
> just film scores) i find that i get rewarded once i understand it. Try
> it.It's a very unique feeling.

Well, sorry here . I hope I didn't offend you. I will try Goldenthal (I have only Alien 3 score though), but I wob't buy any of his scores without listening them in context (sorry. I prefer tonal music). And I agree with Blake here. I don't want to understand music after few listens. I want to feel its influence with the first listen. But I agree that after few listens you find some things (for example in orchestration) that you didn't notice earlier.

And what do you study.

> Yes, but when you listen to a lot of classical music you will discover
> that Zimmer all he does is basically copy those composers (like Horner). I
> don't find that his works have a very distinctive neoclassical style that
> will persuade me (you might say they do, but IMHO Goldenthal does it way
> better). Take for example Mr.Goldenthal's Final Fantasy score: He uses
> 19th Century Straussian orchestration with heavy brass, yet you can very
> distinctively hear that it is Goldenthal music. It has a certain style
> that persuades you as a listener.

> Thanks for reading.

> k

No, actually Hannibal is quite distinct. Zimmer didn't just rip off Mahler, (for instance he gave very needed unease to the score). If you would like discuss this particular score feel free to ask me. It is my favorite Zimmer.
It is the only score that was written to be liked by the main character of the movie (yes, I think Dr Lecter would fall in love with it ).

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Friday, August 2, 2002 (2:52 p.m.) 

> I was talking about your correspondence with Blake particularly.

> Well, sorry here . I hope I didn't offend you.

Not a prob.

> And what do you study.
Is this a question? If yes, then i'm a piano performance student at the UT at Austin. My dream is to become a conductor and perhaps get involved with film scores some time in the future.

> No, actually Hannibal is quite distinct. Zimmer didn't just rip off
> Mahler, (for instance he gave very needed unease to the score). If you
> would like discuss this particular score feel free to ask me. It is my
> favorite Zimmer.
It is the only score that was written to be liked by
> the main character of the movie (yes, I think Dr Lecter would fall in love
> with it ).

Hmmmm...Tell you the truth, i've only listened to small sound clips from Hannibal. If you are sure the score is quite distinct then i would be happy to learn more about the particular score. Oh, and have i mentioned that i actually like a Zimmer score?-As Good as it Gets.

And another thing: Don't take this wrong, please do not be offended, but i believe that if you were a music student you would have a different opinion on what you've stated earlier(that great music should strike you right from the beginning). Have you ever heard a Beethoven Symphony that was so easy to understand right from the first time? No. Music, like any other form of art has a certain philosophy in it. And this is what i find in Goldenthal. I feel there is something strong in his music. Goldenthal, like Beethoven, makes me feel tired when i listen to him. Not because he is overbearingly loud but because he makes me think (don't just stick to his Alien3 score-there are other examples of great music by the composer). On the other hand, i have nothing against music that makes you feel good that is plain enjoyable. I wouldn't give the definition of Art Music to that category though.
And if you are indeed a music student, then i suggest you start questioning yourself a bit more when you listen to music in general. I repeat, no offense man.

k



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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Kyri

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Kyri
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Monday, August 5, 2002 (4:49 a.m.) 

> Not a prob.
Is this a question? If yes, then i'm a piano performance
> student at the UT at Austin. My dream is to become a conductor and perhaps
> get involved with film scores some time in the future.

Irt was a question (I don't know why i forgot the question mark )

It is the only
> score that was written to be liked by

> Hmmmm...Tell you the truth, i've only listened to small sound clips from
> Hannibal. If you are sure the score is quite distinct then i would be
> happy to learn more about the particular score.

For Zimmer, it is distinct. He almost quit his synths (but this score is sampled). It has atonal fragments (one or two), but mostly it's elegant and classical. One of Zimmer's friends (Klaus Badelt) composed a parody of Blue Danube (yes! listen to it). Another one scored an opera piece and it is very likely that he'll write a whole opera (Zimmer and fans encourage him). And take a listen in Te Thin Red Line. This is a score you must listen into. It makes me very reflective it's distinct too. And another, definitely atonal Zimer for you Black Hawk Down. Now this is a score to discuss (very clever dicisions made by Hans himself).

> Oh, and have i mentioned
> that i actually like a Zimmer score?-As Good as it Gets.

I LOVE that score. He quit his synths here too. Very good use of pizzicatos here, isn't there? I forgot to give you this as an example of Zimmer's good writing (For me he's a genius) and great theme.

> And another thing: Don't take this wrong, please do not be offended, but i
> believe that if you were a music student you would have a different
> opinion on what you've stated earlier(that great music should strike you
> right from the beginning). Have you ever heard a Beethoven Symphony that
> was so easy to understand right from the first time? No. Music, like any
> other form of art has a certain philosophy in it. And this is what i find
> in Goldenthal. I feel there is something strong in his music. Goldenthal,
> like Beethoven, makes me feel tired when i listen to him. Not because he
> is overbearingly loud but because he makes me think (don't just stick to
> his Alien3 score-there are other examples of great music by the composer).
> On the other hand, i have nothing against music that makes you feel good
> that is plain enjoyable. I wouldn't give the definition of Art Music to
> that category though.
And if you are indeed a music student, then i
> suggest you start questioning yourself a bit more when you listen to music
> in general. I repeat, no offense man.

> k

I'm not offended and I'm not a student. I'm a self-taught composer (very, very weak, although I like some od my tracks). If you want I could send you some MIDIs with my compositions (and don't be too hard with it ). Zimmer inspired me to compose. I orchestrate myself. And one question. What exactly an euphonium is?

If you want to be a conductor, good luck (Maybe I'll be a score composer and I must have a conductor ))

Before this post I made my homework. I listened to Alien3 and I read all Goldenthal rewievs on this site and I'll be happy to share my opponions about it with you).

I liked the score. It is not "Abundance of noise with no substance", although it has its share of noise . Goldenthal is underrated. Let's hope Final Fantasy will change people's oppinion.

Synthesizers are used in a very clever manner. They build an eerie atmosphere (not uneasy - somehow i didn't find the score uneasy). Now I know why (in Poland at least) Goldenthal is called a master of orchestration (compared to Berlioz and Ravel). He is really good. He must have a great keyboard, because such notes can't be on a piano. Very, very good glissandos and arrangement.

My favorite track is, of course, Adagio. It has very powerful emotionally and brings the only cohesive melody in whole score, but it is a choice of writing and I won't bash the score for its atonality (actually I found it interesting.)

It has some flaws though: few fragments with score really sounding like sound effects (I agree with Christian here, sorry), a neat but unnecessary heavy metal cue (maybe it compliments the primality of the rape on Ripley, tell me) and a track name I can't agree with (Lento stops being lento at a time).

For me it is a weak 4 stars/very strong 3.5. My favorite Alien score is still Horner Aliens.

Does Golenthal give a classical track titl in every score (Adagio, Lento, Toccata, Dies Irae)?

Alien3 is the only Goldenthal's sore I've got (on an MP3 CD, I didn't know I have it.)

And one thing I haven't told you before. I don't agree with you about originality of Track 3 of Star Wars II, except the guitar of course. It sounds alot like Williams' The Lost World and sounds like Stravinsky's "The Rite of Springs".

I like discussing with you.

Thanks, Pawel

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Monday, August 5, 2002 (2:01 p.m.) 

> For Zimmer, it is distinct. He almost quit his synths (but this score is
> sampled). It has atonal fragments (one or two), but mostly it's elegant
> and classical. One of Zimmer's friends (Klaus Badelt) composed a parody of
> Blue Danube (yes! listen to it). Another one scored an opera piece and it
> is very likely that he'll write a whole opera (Zimmer and fans encourage
> him). And take a listen in Te Thin Red Line. This is a score you must
> listen into. It makes me very reflective it's distinct too. And another,
> definitely atonal Zimer for you Black Hawk Down. Now this is a score to
> discuss (very clever dicisions made by Hans himself).

Yep. I might check on all of that. Especially Hannibal. Do you have any idea where i can find the operas and stuff?

> I'm not offended and I'm not a student. I'm a self-taught composer (very,
> very weak, although I like some od my tracks). If you want I could send
> you some MIDIs with my compositions (and don't be too hard with it ).

Yeah, sure! I would love to hear them. Who knows, you might be the next Danny Elfman!

And one question.
> What exactly an euphonium is?

Hmmm... being a music student doesn't mean i know everything.. I believe it belongs in the brass family of instruments, not sure though.

> If you want to be a conductor, good luck (Maybe I'll be a score composer
> and I must have a conductor ))

Yeah, that would be fun! Who knows..

> Before this post I made my homework. I listened to Alien3 and I read all
> Goldenthal rewievs on this site and I'll be happy to share my opponions
> about it with you).

> I liked the score. It is not "Abundance of noise with no
> substance", although it has its share of noise .

Hmmmm..there is a difference between MERE noise and MEANINGFUL noise. Goldenthal uses the instruments in such ways because he wants to portray and exaggerate certain key elements in the film.

> It has some flaws though: few fragments with score really sounding like
> sound effects (I agree with Christian here, sorry),

Yes, but those "sound effects" are very meaningful sound effects. The purpose of music in a film is to subtly enhance the pictures. If a film demands such brutality then it has to be present in the movie in a raw form. For example, in The First Attack cue, at around 4:10 you can actually listen to all the violence in the brass section. It sounds as if the hands of a brutal beast are violently trying to grasp you. It's just so obvious. The music, just like the film has to portray such brutality in a raw form. Another example occurs in Death dance, 1:35 to be more precise.

...a neat but unnecessary
> heavy metal cue (maybe it compliments the primality of the rape on Ripley,
> tell me)

Yes, exactly. I really don't find this cue unnecessary. Why do you say that?

...and a track name I can't agree with (Lento stops being lento at a
> time).

Nope, i think that the whole cue deserves "Lento" as a title. You must be referring to the section immediately after the "aria". If you listen to it more carefully and follow it in a more horizontal way instead of paying too much attention in the minimalistic violins, you will see that the "melody" is situated in the brass section. You might find an example of the same technique in Beethoven's sixth Symphony (2nd movement). There you can very clearly see that the theme motives appear to be separated by accompanying violins. This is what Goldenthal does only in a lot more Contemporary-minimalistic way.

> For me it is a weak 4 stars/very strong 3.5. My favorite Alien score is
> still Horner Aliens.

Hmmmmm...i would give Goldenthal's Alien3 a high five, and Horner's Aliens a 3.
My second favourite Alien score would be Goldsmith's original attempt. Great orchestrations, different feel, a classic.

> Does Golenthal give a classical track titl in every score (Adagio, Lento,
> Toccata, Dies Irae)?

Yes, he does that a lot. I like it actually. He manages to give titles a more serious, artistic form instead of the old-fashioned "Main titles," Bob's theme" etc.

> And one thing I haven't told you before. I don't agree with you about
> originality of Track 3 of Star Wars II, except the guitar of course. It
> sounds alot like Williams' The Lost World and sounds like Stravinsky's
> "The Rite of Springs".

Tell you the truth, i haven't heard The lost World so i can't comment on that.
Oh....ok yeah...The Rite of Springs. Well i give you that, but then again, Williams has plagiarized almost every composer. Wagner, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff etc. What i like about Williams though is that he brought forth the romantic sounds that classic films need (Star Wars, ET, Close Encounters) and no matter how better a musician Goldenthal is, i still have lots of appreciation for John Williams and his immense work for film music.
Goldenthal on the other hand is a solid composer and a great musician. Maybe that's the reason he is very underrated; because like any true musician, he sometimes is quite hard to understand(check out his Fire Water Paper:A vietnam oratorio; a great piece of work).

> I like discussing with you.

Me too!
> Thanks, Pawel

Are you Polish? Tell me, what do people there think about Elliot Goldenthal?(they might like him a lot because he is using techniques associated with the Polish avant-garde??)

k


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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Tuesday, August 6, 2002 (5:48 a.m.) 

> Yep. I might check on all of that. Especially Hannibal. Do you have any
> idea where i can find the operas and stuff?

On Kazaa, in any store. It was a quite big publication. I don't know about the opera . Check out Hannibal's website.

> Yeah, sure! I would love to hear them. Who knows, you might be the next
> Danny Elfman!

> And one question.

> Hmmm... being a music student doesn't mean i know everything.. I believe
> it belongs in the brass family of instruments, not sure though.

Sorry

> Yeah, that would be fun! Who knows..

No, I'm not another Elfman . I'm rather musical son of Hans Zimmer , but I started to rely on orchestra rather than synths. Well I'll send you something, that in my oppinion, sounds like Schindler's List meets Pearl Harbor.

> Hmmmm..there is a difference between MERE noise and MEANINGFUL noise.
> Goldenthal uses the instruments in such ways because he wants to portray
> and exaggerate certain key elements in the film.

Yes. I agree.

> Yes, but those "sound effects" are very meaningful sound
> effects. The purpose of music in a film is to subtly enhance the pictures.
> If a film demands such brutality then it has to be present in the movie in
> a raw form. For example, in The First Attack cue, at around 4:10 you can
> actually listen to all the violence in the brass section. It sounds as if
> the hands of a brutal beast are violently trying to grasp you. It's just
> so obvious. The music, just like the film has to portray such brutality in
> a raw form. Another example occurs in Death dance, 1:35 to be more
> precise.

Yes. I found those brass quite attractive to my ears... I didn't expect that. It has a meaning, but I don't recall the context.

> ...a neat but unnecessary

> Yes, exactly. I really don't find this cue unnecessary. Why do you say
> that?

On an orchestral score heavy metal, that's quite strange, don't you think? But still it's neat.

> ...and a track name I can't agree with (Lento stops being lento at a

> Nope, i think that the whole cue deserves "Lento" as a title.
> You must be referring to the section immediately after the
> "aria". If you listen to it more carefully and follow it in a
> more horizontal way instead of paying too much attention in the
> minimalistic violins, you will see that the "melody" is situated
> in the brass section. You might find an example of the same technique in
> Beethoven's sixth Symphony (2nd movement). There you can very clearly see
> that the theme motives appear to be separated by accompanying violins.
> This is what Goldenthal does only in a lot more Contemporary-minimalistic
> way.

I'll listen to that Beethoven. Maybe you're right.

> Hmmmmm...i would give Goldenthal's Alien3 a high five, and Horner's Aliens
> a 3.
My second favourite Alien score would be Goldsmith's original
> attempt. Great orchestrations, different feel, a classic.

> Yes, he does that a lot. I like it actually. He manages to give titles a
> more serious, artistic form instead of the old-fashioned "Main
> titles," Bob's theme" etc.

> Tell you the truth, i haven't heard The lost World so i can't comment on
> that.
Oh....ok yeah...The Rite of Springs. Well i give you that, but
> then again, Williams has plagiarized almost every composer. Wagner,
> Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff etc. What i like about Williams though is that
> he brought forth the romantic sounds that classic films need (Star Wars,
> ET, Close Encounters) and no matter how better a musician Goldenthal is, i
> still have lots of appreciation for John Williams and his immense work for
> film music.
Goldenthal on the other hand is a solid composer and a
> great musician. Maybe that's the reason he is very underrated; because
> like any true musician, he sometimes is quite hard to understand(check out
> his Fire Water Paper:A vietnam oratorio; a great piece of work).

Tell me more about the oratorio. My favorite Williams is of course Schindler's List. A very simple but effective effort.

> Me too!

Well I aprreciate meningful discussions.

> Are you Polish? Tell me, what do people there think about Elliot
> Goldenthal?(they might like him a lot because he is using techniques
> associated with the Polish avant-garde??)

I am Poilsh. I don't know about Goldenthal... As I wrote before he's appreciated for his orchestrations (compared to Berlioz, Ravel).

Thanks, k!

Pawel

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Kyri
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Pawel Stroinski

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Pawel Stroinski
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Tuesday, August 6, 2002 (2:35 p.m.) 

> On Kazaa, in any store. It was a quite big publication. I don't know about
> the opera . Check out Hannibal's website.

I will. Thanks.

> No, I'm not another Elfman . I'm rather musical son of Hans Zimmer ,
> but I started to rely on orchestra rather than synths. Well I'll send you
> something, that in my oppinion, sounds like Schindler's List meets Pearl
> Harbor.

Sorry if you were offended by the Elfman comment, but i do believe that even though Elfman isn't an extremely skillful composer he has a passion for film music that allows him to write pretty cool stuff. His Batman score is quite good and despite several orchestrational mistakes, his main theme manages to capture the dark essence of the film very successfully i would say (Edward Scissorhands is quite good too IMO). Well..he is another composer who definetely plagiarizes other composers but what can we do...life of a composer is difficult these days.

> On an orchestral score heavy metal, that's quite strange, don't you think?
> But still it's neat.

Nope i don't find it strange at all! Goldenthal has successfully used electric guitars in his scores before and it's quite an experience to listen to how he uses the instrument. The electric guitar is part of his orchestration and is put there in a very meaningful way. Check out his scores to Heat and In Dreams.
We might discuss more about the use of the guitar once you've listened to them.
Goldenthal's mentor (teacher) was John Corigliano, a worldwide respected American Contemporary composer. He is still alive and i had the pleasure and honor of meeting him in person when he visited my school in Texas for masterclasses. You should check out his first Symphony(titled AIDS symphony). More about that when you listen to it. He also has written two scores. Altered States and The Red Violin (which won an oscar).

> Tell me more about the oratorio. My favorite Williams is of course
> Schindler's List. A very simple but effective effort.

I agree about Williams's Schindlers' List. Hmmmm..Goldenthal's oratorio is quite a hard work to analyse and i think it would be better if you just took my word for it and buy it anyway. It's a work i'm still trying to comprehend (partly because i could only find a used copy with no inside notes saying more about the work, and partly because there is just too much stuff to get involved with-especially in the first and third movements). Buy it though. If you can still find it. It's well worth the money.

Have a good day/night,

Thanks for writing,
k

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Pawel Stroinski
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Kyri
Re: Zimmer and Goldenthal   Wednesday, August 7, 2002 (3:47 a.m.) 

> I will. Thanks.

> Sorry if you were offended by the Elfman comment, but i do believe that
> even though Elfman isn't an extremely skillful composer he has a passion
> for film music that allows him to write pretty cool stuff. His Batman
> score is quite good and despite several orchestrational mistakes, his main
> theme manages to capture the dark essence of the film very successfully i
> would say (Edward Scissorhands is quite good too IMO). Well..he is another
> composer who definetely plagiarizes other composers but what can we
> do...life of a composer is difficult these days.

I wasn't offended at all (if anything you rather offended HIM ). Batman is good, but I haven't got the score (I won't, I think). Tell me more about the mistakes.

> Nope i don't find it strange at all! Goldenthal has successfully used
> electric guitars in his scores before and it's quite an experience to
> listen to how he uses the instrument. The electric guitar is part of his
> orchestration and is put there in a very meaningful way. Check out his
> scores to Heat and In Dreams.
We might discuss more about the use of
> the guitar once you've listened to them.
Goldenthal's mentor (teacher)
> was John Corigliano, a worldwide respected American Contemporary composer.
> He is still alive and i had the pleasure and honor of meeting him in
> person when he visited my school in Texas for masterclasses. You should
> check out his first Symphony(titled AIDS symphony). More about that when
> you listen to it. He also has written two scores. Altered States and The
> Red Violin (which won an oscar).

I know about Corigliani's Oscar, but nice to know he's a classical composer. Is his style tonal? (except Red Violin ehich it I heard some fragments)

> I agree about Williams's Schindlers' List. Hmmmm..Goldenthal's oratorio is
> quite a hard work to analyse and i think it would be better if you just
> took my word for it and buy it anyway. It's a work i'm still trying to
> comprehend (partly because i could only find a used copy with no inside
> notes saying more about the work, and partly because there is just too
> much stuff to get involved with-especially in the first and third
> movements). Buy it though. If you can still find it. It's well worth the
> money.

It's not available in Poland. I haven't seen Final Fantasy too.

I have made some insight on Goldenthal on Polish Internet. Well I found one Website strictly about him, but it's somehow spoilt (one page is readable). What are the avant-garde techniques? And are those Polish composers Penderecki, Gorecki and Lutoslawski? And do you like Kilar?

I thought more about classical influences on film music and I discovered something in Horner's Willow. If you have the score and Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique listen to Willow's Theme and March aux supplices from the latter. Similar, isn't it?

> Have a good day/night,

> Thanks for writing,
k

Same to you,

Pawel.


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moviemonger
(ool-43547584.dyn.optonline.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri
Re: You cannot measure the quality...   Saturday, August 21, 2004 (9:01 p.m.) 

4:...Come
> on....i mean, it's like listening to more refined techno...Don't tell me
> you consider techno ART MUSIC....
Just try listening to it more
> carefully.

Broken Arrow is the best techno-western EVER!

(just for future posts don't judge me on just this one line, I like techno, but it doesn't mean I'm not "refined" or in my words: "conformed")

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moviemonger
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  In Response to:
Kyri
Re: You cannot measure the quality...   Saturday, August 21, 2004 (9:40 p.m.) 

3:Well, it might be art, but is it ART
> MUSIC? There is a huge difference in that...

I don't like when people say something is art. For you it's art because you've been taught or "conformed" by your instructors down a certain way of constructing a piece of music. It's just like I hate when people call certain books or plays masterpieces because it of the way it was constructed (i.e.: shakespeare - his plays are so typical of "conformed" drama)

When people call things true "masterpieces" or "works of art", I immediately dismiss the statement because I know that it's going to have a certain style which can only be appreciated by "refined" or "conformed" persons.

Art in my opinion is bad because it dismisses originality and expects you to have a formulaic structure and pattern to your work.

I like zimmer because he doesn't conform to your "artistic" views. He writes what he feels, and not only art masterpieces can convey emotions well. Although he has a certain style to him, I can expect music that he will push the envelope. His work has a style but it's still original and fresh. It's good, but it doesn't have to be [your] artistic to be good.

What I'm trying to say is that art music is formulaic (maybe not explicitly, but you've been trained to look for the "quality" in art and only certain "quality" defines art for you), and in my opinion art music does not mean the music is quality.

Art music needs training to "appreciate", but all humans have a natural taste that defines what's good or not. Primitive humans weren't taught how to appreciate food, they may have been forced to by the limited resource, but today there are a pluthera of music selections to listen to and like without being forced to like a certain taste.

No hard feeling, it's just that I have an intense loathing for what people call art. I hate what people call art, but it doesn't mean I hate you, rather I respect eveyone, but I just disagree with what people and "established authorities" call art. I can go into a more psychological attack on these pople, but I'm getting tired of writing.

P.S. I was wondering if you think the "terminator 2" score is art music. At first you may not like it, but after a few listens it starts to break down and make sense (structurally). I think the music is superb, although to many is may sound like noise and mayhem.

You tell us to give your composers a shot by going out and buying their music to listen and grow a liking for it. Well, it works both ways.

Please respond. Thanks.

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Adam P.
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t.net)

  In Response to:
Blake
Re: That's your opinion, buddy.   Sunday, November 24, 2002 (12:28 p.m.) 

> I think that this score is VERY special. What do you think makes it so
> popular? The main theme is awesome, I also love the ISQ track, trying
> listening to it while you're driving at night! This soundtrack is an
> amazing listening experience. If you also like action queues, this has
> some great ones.

> And, by the way, sir, your comments are just your OPINION. Just because
> you don't think its special, doesn't make it not special to someone ELSE.
> Everbody has preferences to what music they like. So please stop acting
> like a wiseguy who has, qoute:"the truth" Thanks.

> So, anyone who's interested in getting this CD, listen to the audio clips,
> and if you think you like what you hear... GET IT! YOU WON'T REGRET IT!

"Amen" to that!!! My personal Fav. track is 'Mutiny'!!! But if you listen to this CD, without knowing it you'll reach towards the volume and CRANK IT UP TO THE MAX!!!!!!!!I would buy the CD even if it's just the main title!!!!! This CD is worth any amount of money you pay!!!!!!!!!!

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Mark
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Wednesday, April 17, 2002 (8:32 p.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

I've never really listened to an Eliot Goldenthal work that I've actually liked, and I do think that Hans Zimmer is really talented. Though, it is probably better to listen to the audio clips before buying Crimson Tide because this type of music appeals to some, and ends up repulsive to others.

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Kyri
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Mark

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Littleman
Re: don't waste your money.   Wednesday, April 17, 2002 (9:35 p.m.) 

> I've never really listened to an Eliot Goldenthal work that I've actually
> liked, and I do think that Hans Zimmer is really talented.

Try listening to Goldenthal's works a bit more. Then you will understand what a true composer is. His style is atonal and i will admit that to many people it is not very pleasant to the ears. You get used to it though. It grows into you with time. But he IS a GREAT composer. The best one working in Hollywood right now. His music is music that makes you want to think and explore. It's not just another "main theme bla bla bla" type of music. It's on another level. A level which the listener himself has to discover. It is music of great imagination, depth and complexity (try listening to his Alien 3 score-it's a masterpiece).


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Littleman
(ip68-5-94-128.oc.oc.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Friday, July 2, 2004 (12:10 a.m.) 

This is what we call a "fanboy".

I'm not saying Eliot sucks but the way you lift him up could only be from the love of a crazed fanatic. You shouldn't trash other gifted composers because their style differs from his (which it sounds like from previous comments his style is the only one glorious style.) So when you criticize other composer(s) drop the fanatic crud. It irritates others and makes you sound like you don't know much.

No harm (or patronizing) intended -

R, C


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Silentfurymm
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (10:33 a.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

Odd you should use the word inventiveness, considering that Williams rips most of his stuff off of other composers. Like Vagner(spelling), hell so does Zimmer. I also find it worth mentioning that Goldsmith submitted a score for Gladiator but was rejected becuase it didnt sound as good as Zimmers piece. As for Goldenthal, well yes he is original. But only in the sense that his works are "new age" and do not inspire emotion. His works do not "stand alone" with out the pictures that correspond. If I am forced to listen to a piece until "I get used to it" than it wasnt really moving was it. A piece should strike you the first time you hear it as somthing you like or dislike, not something that is so bland you have to listen to it a few times. Zimmer's wrok for Crimson Tide did affect me the first time I heard it. You get the emotion of size and power, and it makes me drive crazy on the road! Open your mind, I do like some of Goldenthals work and most of the the other two guys, but dont tell others to ignore Zimmer.

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Kyri
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Silentfurymm

  Responses to this Comment:
silentfurymm
A.G.F.
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (1:31 p.m.) 

As for Goldenthal, well yes he is original. But only in the
> sense that his works are "new age" and do not inspire emotion.
> His works do not "stand alone" with out the pictures that
> correspond. If I am forced to listen to a piece until "I get used to
> it" than it wasnt really moving was it. A piece should strike you the
> first time you hear it as somthing you like or dislike, not something that
> is so bland you have to listen to it a few times.

Oh, man...what a terrible mistake you are doing by talking about Elliot Goldenthal like this...First of all, the term "New Age" in music applies to the "compositions" written by Zimmer. Elliot Goldenthal composes music which in musical terms can be classified as "Serious Contemporary music." Of course it is quite clear to me that we are talking on different levels. Elliot Goldenthal's level is the artistic level which only classical music can reach. It is the work of a composer who considers Film scoring a serious art and who composes music which is so very well CRAFTED(and not always the Zimmer 1-4-5-1 cheezy progressions). ...if you know what i mean....And i am really sorry you consider Goldenthal's music "bland." If it doesn't appeal to your tastes that doesn't mean that it is not artistic. ....with Zimmer of course, the case is quite different...

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silentfurymm
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (8:51 p.m.) 

Well, If your going to be soo blatently sarcastic and condenscending I guess I can too. I never said that Goldenthal wasnt artistic. In fact that is the whole problem I have with his pieces. They are so "artistic" that they end up only appealing to a narrow fan base who can understand his "artisticaly crafted compisitions". The rest of the world stands back and wonders what in the world this was supposed to sound like.

Now, upon further review I have realized I did not give you credit for Goldsmith. That guy is the film score god. Nobody can touch him. Williams on the other hand, while having alot to be commended on, still rips his own pieces for his next work. But then again so does Zimmer(Broken Arrow and The Rock are practically extensions of each other)

I think what you are trying to say is that Goldenthal is for those who are sophsiticated and can "truly appriciate classical music". If that is so than so be it. I guess I am just one of the ignorant masses. But if that is true than perhaps you should consider this. Get yourself a P2P program and do a search for Goldenthall. You will get a few hits for pieces and movies I have never heard of(except Final Fantasy, which is pretty boring save for I think track 6, whichever one is the background for the surgery, and the last track). Now search Zimmer, you will get hundreds of hits for popular movies. The ignorant masses have spoken. If you find it surpy and popish thats fine, but as for the rest of the world who does not poses your "artisticaly refined tastes" well dont try to impose you tastes on them. All I am saying is to make a blunt statement like dont listen to this guy becuase he isnt any good, simply becuase you find his work boring, is wrong. People enjoy the soundtrack to Gladiator, its full of power. Even if it is a "boring overdone pattern". Fact is that pattern is what people have come to expect, becuase for use peons it sounds right. People, do go out and listen to Zimmers works. I think you will find them enjoyable and worth a listen. Then YOU decide if you want to spen your money, just listen first.

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Kyri
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silentfurymm

  Responses to this Comment:
Adam P.
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (9:36 p.m.) 

> Well, If your going to be soo blatently sarcastic and condenscending I
> guess I can too.

> Now, upon further review I have realized I did not give you credit for
> Goldsmith. That guy is the film score god. Nobody can touch him. Williams
> on the other hand, while having alot to be commended on, still rips his
> own pieces for his next work. But then again so does Zimmer(Broken Arrow
> and The Rock are practically extensions of each other)

I think you will find them enjoyable and worth a listen.

1: You are mistaking my intentions once again. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I am sorry whether that's the message that went through.
2: It's a good thing that we at least agree about Goldsmith. As far as Williams is concerned try getting his Episode II soundtrack(if you haven't yet purchased it, that is). You will listen to some really original touches by him(track 3 for example).
3: I cannot find Zimmer's works "enjoyable" simply because they are VERY simple in emotions. It's either "heroism," or "love," etc etc etc etc..... There is no deep meaning in his music. There is nothing for me to enjoy. Every emotion presented in his music is so square and obvious that gets very repetitive after a while. You are right about "what masses like." However, i wasn't trying to criticize the masses. The message i am trying to get through is that there is better film music out there that can actually offer you a worthwhile experience. There are different music tastes, i agree, but the fact that Elliot Goldenthal is a far superior composer still stands. Just try listening to more of his concert work (especially his Vietnam Oratorio:Fire Water Paper)and tell me whether that music of his is at the same artistic level as Zimmer's. Just TRY to discover something else in music and film music in general besides simple emotions. I'm merely suggesting, not attacking you.

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Adam P.
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t.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Sunday, November 24, 2002 (12:22 p.m.) 

> I think you will find them enjoyable and worth a listen.

> 1: You are mistaking my intentions once again. I wasn't trying to be
> sarcastic. I am sorry whether that's the message that went through.
2:
> It's a good thing that we at least agree about Goldsmith. As far as
> Williams is concerned try getting his Episode II soundtrack(if you haven't
> yet purchased it, that is). You will listen to some really original
> touches by him(track 3 for example).
3: I cannot find Zimmer's works
> "enjoyable" simply because they are VERY simple in emotions.
> It's either "heroism," or "love," etc etc etc etc.....
> There is no deep meaning in his music. There is nothing for me to enjoy.
> Every emotion presented in his music is so square and obvious that gets
> very repetitive after a while. You are right about "what masses
> like." However, i wasn't trying to criticize the masses. The message
> i am trying to get through is that there is better film music out there
> that can actually offer you a worthwhile experience. There are different
> music tastes, i agree, but the fact that Elliot Goldenthal is a far
> superior composer still stands. Just try listening to more of his concert
> work (especially his Vietnam Oratorio:Fire Water Paper)and tell me whether
> that music of his is at the same artistic level as Zimmer's. Just TRY to
> discover something else in music and film music in general besides simple
> emotions. I'm merely suggesting, not attacking you.

How can you say this???????? Sure John Williams is good, actually he's awesome, but his name is bigger than Zimmer's which is what most people go for! I dare you to listen to these CD's: Gladiator, Pearl Harbor, The Thin Red Line, Beyond Rangoon, CRIMSON TIDE, The Prince of Egypt, and The Lion King! If after listening to these you're not a Zimmer fan, then you need some hearing aids,BADLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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A.G.F.
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Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Saturday, November 16, 2002 (2:39 p.m.) 

Excuse me? Only classical music can reach an artistic level?! Well, that's a typically 18th century, Western view to take. You're basically saying that the only culture capable of creating "artistic-level" music is European. That's not only a moronic idea, but it's just plain racist. Let's just throw out all the jazz, R&B, rock, folk, country, blues (to name just North American styles), and any non-post-medievel-European music style, shall we. It's quite possible that you didn't realise how serious your comment was, but you should think before you write something like that. If you're still insistant on your point, then music student or not, you're a fool.

=

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Lee
(ip68-11-125-159.no.no.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Tuesday, July 23, 2002 (6:33 p.m.) 

Don't even try to argue with "serious critics" like this, it's pointless. If someone is arrogant enough to feel like they alone can determine what is quality and what isn't, then they have a WHOLE other set of problems to deal with, and they have nothing too do with music. I don't want to take music seriously enough to make it not enjoyable. If I think something sounds great, then I'm going to listen to it, regardless of the "eloquent chord progressions" or "dense reverberations" or what have you.

Bottom line, this is this guy's opinion, and not truth, so don't read this and think, "If I like Zimmer, I'm an idiot." The truth of the matter is, if you like Zimmer, welcome to the club of millions others who feel exactly the same way. This is a wonderful score, and the main theme is probably, IN MY OPINION, one of the best ever.

No offense to you dude, you're just coming off as one of those "Because I say it, it's right" type of people. I know this is text, so emotions aren't portrayed good, so I HOPE I'm wrong about that, and I've just been misunderstanding your tone. If I am, I apologize. If I'm NOT, then good Lord man, you need a reality check.

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Lee

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Lee
Slade
Re: don't waste your money.   Tuesday, July 23, 2002 (11:15 p.m.) 

I don't
> want to take music seriously enough to make it not enjoyable.

Now this is clearly a false statement. By listening to music that is complex in emotional material and orchestrations you allow yourself to experience something else and once you discover new things, THEN you feel MORE joy and you thank a great composer for writing a great piece of music. In other words, serious music can be MORE enjoyable than just a good melody lalala that gets you right from the beginning.

> Bottom line, this is this guy's opinion, and not truth, so don't read this
> and think, "If I like Zimmer, I'm an idiot." The truth of the
> matter is, if you like Zimmer, welcome to the club of millions others who
> feel exactly the same way.

If someone told you to go and jump off the top of a high cliff just because millions of others have already done it, would you? Popularity doesn't make a score GREAT. It doesn't change its content. It is what it is. And a FEW people have the right not liking everyone's favorite score.

> No offense to you dude, you're just coming off as one of those
> "Because I say it, it's right" type of people. I know this is
> text, so emotions aren't portrayed good, so I HOPE I'm wrong about that,
> and I've just been misunderstanding your tone.

No; you are right! I did come off the way you described above. I just get soooo pissed off when i see genious composers such as Elliot Goldenthal get so little credit when they've written masterpieces such as Alien 3, Sphere, Final Fantasy, Titus etc etc.

If
> I'm NOT, then good Lord man, you need a reality check.

After all this, has it ever occured to you that maybe it's YOU who needs a reality check?

Have a good day!

k


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Lee
(ip68-11-125-159.no.no.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
byro
Fabian
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, July 25, 2002 (1:28 p.m.) 

> Now this is clearly a false statement. By listening to music that is
> complex in emotional material and orchestrations you allow yourself to
> experience something else and once you discover new things, THEN you feel
> MORE joy and you thank a great composer for writing a great piece of
> music. In other words, serious music can be MORE enjoyable than just a
> good melody lalala that gets you right from the beginning.

I tactfully disagree, and liken it to automobiles. If I'm going to buy a car, I'm going to buy something that I see that grabs my attention, quickly, AND something that I've checked up on to make sure it's not a piece of junk, and it suits my needs. I'm not going to buy something that completely does not interest me, that I have to "acquire a liking for." The same goes with music. Goldenthal pumps you up, and that's fantastic. I'd be lying if I said his music wasn't great. BUT, your Goldenthal is my Zimmer. He catches my attention, and takes me on an emotional ride. I like his music from the getgo, so I don't have to research and examine it to find an appreciation -- it's already there. Just like I'll buy a car that I like (instead of finding one I'll "learn to appreciate"), I'll buy a composer's work that I like (instead of finding someone I'll "learn to appreciate"). It's the basis for the current economic system -- get what you want whenever you can.

> If someone told you to go and jump off the top of a high cliff just
> because millions of others have already done it, would you? Popularity
> doesn't make a score GREAT. It doesn't change its content. It is what it
> is. And a FEW people have the right not liking everyone's favorite score.

Let's flip this paragraph around for a moment If someone came up to you and told you "not to waste your money" on any Goldenthal scores, but to start a Hans Zimmer collection because his music was much better, would you? Personal opinions don't make a score GREAT. They don't change its content. They are what they are. And even though a few people have the right to NOT like everyone's favorite score, it does NOT give them the right to claim superiority, and downplay everyone else in the process.

> No; you are right! I did come off the way you described above. I just get
> soooo pissed off when i see genious composers such as Elliot Goldenthal
> get so little credit when they've written masterpieces such as Alien 3,
> Sphere, Final Fantasy, Titus etc etc.

I understand, and emphathize. I, on the other hand, get a tad irritated when people come stampeding to what I escape, pump myself up, and get lost to, and claim that it's "not worth my money" and of low importance and quality, which is exactly what you came here and did, to be honest. Goldenthal has done a lot, and he does deserve credit for what he's done. I'd personally like to hear the Sphere score, and I own the Final Fantasy soundtrack, as well as several others from the man. But, as you prefer Goldenthal over Zimmer (which is not wrong), I prefer Zimmer over Goldenthal (which is NOT wrong). It is, in effect, arrogant to claim that your preferences and your preferences alone are better.

I understand your frustration, and I would feel the same if Zimmer were not getting the attention I felt he deserved. But please, don't take that out on the rest of the world. Not myself, Zimmer, nor any of the people who bought one of his soundtracks, are to blame for Goldenthal not getting the publicity. Instead of bashing Zimmer for his success, and downplaying our intelligence by saying that we should scrap Zimmer and start buying Goldenthal, tell us that Zimmer has done well, and that we should consider Goldenthal also, since he has many noteworthy scores. To quote a corny phrase, "Positive strokes, not negative jokes." I PROMISE you, the people who have read this would have been MUCH more willing to buy a Goldenthal score if you'd have simply said, "Hey, if you like this, you might want to try Goldenthal, he's got some great stuff (like Sphere!)," instead of saying, "Don't waste your money on this, go buy quality work, like Goldenthal." I've said this until I'm blue in the face, and it's become one of my life mottos, so I'll say it to you. I'm sure you've heard it a million times already, since it's a very common (but sadly seldom used) saying: "It's NEVER what you say, but rather HOW you say it." I could convince a total stranger to lend me $100 if I said it right, but I bet I couldn't get my best friend to lend me a nickel if I acted like a jerk.

> After all this, has it ever occured to you that maybe it's YOU who needs a
> reality check?

I got a reality check, and His name is Jesus

> Have a good day!

I will

Please don't look at this as a "counter-attack" argument, but rather, see it as a more pacifistic way of approaching a situation, in order to get the results you seek.

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Kyri
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  In Response to:
Lee

  Responses to this Comment:
Lee
Lee
Re: don't waste your money.   Friday, July 26, 2002 (2:58 a.m.) 

> I tactfully disagree, and liken it to automobiles. If I'm going to buy a
> car, I'm going to buy something that I see that grabs my attention,
> quickly, AND something that I've checked up on to make sure it's not a
> piece of junk, and it suits my needs. I'm not going to buy something that
> completely does not interest me, that I have to "acquire a liking
> for." The same goes with music. Goldenthal pumps you up, and that's
> fantastic. I'd be lying if I said his music wasn't great. BUT, your
> Goldenthal is my Zimmer. He catches my attention, and takes me on an
> emotional ride. I like his music from the getgo, so I don't have to
> research and examine it to find an appreciation -- it's already there.
> Just like I'll buy a car that I like (instead of finding one I'll
> "learn to appreciate"), I'll buy a composer's work that I like
> (instead of finding someone I'll "learn to appreciate"). It's
> the basis for the current economic system -- get what you want whenever
> you can.

I tactfully disagree. Ok..Lets see. Have you ever listened to a classical piece, even if we are talking about the "simplistic" Mozart, that made an impression to you right from the beginning? I'm a music student and i've never heard a Mozart piece that made a GREAT impression to me. BUT; my teachers keep telling me that you slowly discover things. The simple Mozart theme it was for me yesterday, has so much more meaning after i discovered what the composer is trying to tell me. Maybe this has to do with the fact that i am a music student and i like analysing music perhaps a bit more philosophically (no offense;i am really enjoying this argument but do you suspect that because of my difficult tastes in music, i would go and buy a car that i have to "acquire a liking for?"I can't find the relationship in this. Music is my life. I can't link music to what i buy at a casual level).

> I understand your frustration, and I would feel the same if Zimmer were
> not getting the attention I felt he deserved. But please, don't take that
> out on the rest of the world. Not myself, Zimmer, nor any of the people
> who bought one of his soundtracks, are to blame for Goldenthal not getting
> the publicity. Instead of bashing Zimmer for his success, and downplaying
> our intelligence by saying that we should scrap Zimmer and start buying
> Goldenthal, tell us that Zimmer has done well, and that we should consider
> Goldenthal also, since he has many noteworthy scores. To quote a corny
> phrase, "Positive strokes, not negative jokes." I PROMISE you,
> the people who have read this would have been MUCH more willing to buy a
> Goldenthal score if you'd have simply said, "Hey, if you like this,
> you might want to try Goldenthal, he's got some great stuff (like
> Sphere!)," instead of saying, "Don't waste your money on this,
> go buy quality work, like Goldenthal." I've said this until I'm blue
> in the face, and it's become one of my life mottos, so I'll say it to you.
> I'm sure you've heard it a million times already, since it's a very common
> (but sadly seldom used) saying: "It's NEVER what you say, but rather
> HOW you say it." I could convince a total stranger to lend me $100 if
> I said it right, but I bet I couldn't get my best friend to lend me a
> nickel if I acted like a jerk.

Yes; you are right on all of that. I should've approached the situation from a different scope. I've been to a lot of sites though, and negativity is the general feeling about Goldenthal's excellent masterpieces.

Oh, BTW, the results on the reality check also showed Jesus.

Have a good day!

k



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Lee
(ip68-11-125-159.no.no.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Friday, July 26, 2002 (6:52 a.m.) 

Can't type much because I'm about to go to work, but I do want to say that my initial impression of you was wrong, and you are coming across much better I was afraid that you were one of those "you're all wrong but me" people, but I see now that you're not, and that's very cool. I'm happy to see that we can at least discuss this in a friendly manner.

I gotta go, but before I do, tell me how the Sphere soundtrack is, what's the overall mood/feel, and sound? I seriously want to know, because it might be my next purchase

And yes, so you can hear me say it, Goldenthal IS the man!

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Kyri
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Lee
sphere soundtrack   Friday, July 26, 2002 (10:22 a.m.) 

> I gotta go, but before I do, tell me how the Sphere soundtrack is, what's
> the overall mood/feel, and sound? I seriously want to know, because it
> might be my next purchase

First of all; Don't pay attention to the review of Sphere here at Filmtracks.
"Sphere" is very dark in mood (most of Goldenthal's scores are) and this is what i particularly like in him. He is very much like Beethoven: Very programmatic in writing (each note is there for a reason) and very non-optimistic.
Goldenthal's great abilities in orchestration techniques can show very easily in Sphere. Have you seen the film? You might know by now it's an "underwater" kind of film and Goldenthal's orchestration feels exactly like that. He produces that watery effect without making an extensive use of synthesizers(for example in the "Main Titles" cue where he merely makes use of orchestra sounds).
The rest of the score is appropriately atonal in style (like Alien 3). If you purchase this CD, don't even make the mistake of thinking that this is "an abundance of noise without substance" (quoted from the Filmtracks review).
This is contemporary music writing at it's best! And if anyone tells you that this score is utilizing the same techniques found in previous Goldenthal scores (like Alien 3) they are wrong. Sure; some things HAVE to be there-after all, it's Goldenthal's trademark style. This score is hugely original in sound and one of the great pleasures when listening to it is trying to figure out why every note, technique(minimalism, atonalism etc) and sound is put there in relationship with the film (story, unique place, mood etc). You have to listen to this score plenty of times (just like every Goldenthal score) to discover all the beautiful details hidden in there. Definetely a recommendation unless you are not a fan of atonal music. If you want something more along the lines of tonalism, then try "Michael Collins" where you can experience the true nature of drama.

k

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Lee
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  In Response to:
Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Friday, July 26, 2002 (6:56 a.m.) 

And by the way, I'm a Communication Arts major, if you haven't figured out by now


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byro
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Lee
Re: don't waste your money.   Sunday, October 6, 2002 (7:10 a.m.) 

nicely done friend. gb.


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Fabian
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Lee
Re: don't waste your money.   Thursday, October 17, 2002 (6:58 a.m.) 

> Now this is clearly a false statement. By listening to music that is
> complex in emotional material and orchestrations you allow yourself to
> experience something else and once you discover new things, THEN you feel
> MORE joy and you thank a great composer for writing a great piece of
> music. In other words, serious music can be MORE enjoyable than just a
> good melody lalala that gets you right from the beginning.

Now, I must say, I actualy agree. I think that popular tracks, or let's say tracks that you don't have to take serious, grab peoples attention to even start to listen to soundtracks. But once you've come so far and have listened to very many soundtraclks, you will find that the popular soundtracks are on a very common bases, or they of course wouldn't attract so many people. Therefore you will start looking for new stuff, which often goes into a very personal direction, that means something that not many people will like, and you get a very specific idea of what you would like. If a soundtrack catches me from the first hear, it you usualy reminds me of some other classic soundtrack that's already been there, and where there are millions of it's type. Usualy the themes are predictable and square. I like soundtracks, that i don't quite grab right from the beginning, and eventualy after hearing a few times ( and after taking it "seriously" ), i start enjoying it, and i'm sure to find more and more ideas that i have overheard at the beginning. This is a lot more pleasent because the themes i.e. don't get boring, like Zimmers, after the fifth time you hear it.
By the way I am a Zimmer fan, because very few tracks of his, especialy on Gladiator, have this "unpopular", surprising quality to them, where one can tell, that if the scene of a movie needs it, Zimmer can compose on a very high level.

P.S.: Excuse my poor English, I'm German.

Fabian

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Slade
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Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Sunday, December 29, 2002 (5:48 a.m.) 

personally i think Elliot Goldenthal work on Final Fantasy was pathetic, they should of used Nobuo Uematsu the original composer of the final fantasy series and a very good composer in my opinion. well sorry to go off the subject.

And on the subject I think this album is great (not going off its popularity) I think that the end theme (Roll tide) was a great ending theme it was rather ear piercing in some areas with the loud very similar to the Howard Shore song Bride of Khazad Dum.

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Adam P.
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Kyri
Re: don't waste your money.   Saturday, October 5, 2002 (9:14 a.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

Yeh, the other composers are good, but none can compare to Zimmer. He's the German extraordinare. Crimson Tideis one of THE Best Soundtracks on the market!!!

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byro
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  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyriacos
Re: don't waste your money.   Sunday, October 6, 2002 (7:02 a.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

Oh shut up. Its your opinion verus millions. think what you want, but try and give us a good reason instead of tellin' us what to do.


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Kyriacos
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byro
Re: don't waste your money.   Wednesday, October 9, 2002 (8:03 p.m.) 

> Oh shut up. Its your opinion verus millions. think what you want, but try
> and give us a good reason instead of tellin' us what to do.

Why don't you try reading the rest of the thread if you are looking for reasons...i'm too busy to outline everything for you.

have a good day

kyri

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Adam P.
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Kyri
be careful, Kyri   Friday, November 21, 2003 (2:13 p.m.) 

> If you want something with inventiveness try one of the true
> composers:Elliot Goldenthal, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith.
Don't
> waste your money on this.

Be careful, you might get assasinated by an extreme Zimmer fan, like me sometime in the night, for making a comment like that

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Steve
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  In Response to:
Kyri

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Richard Kleiner
John Williams + Inventiveness   Saturday, January 14, 2006 (6:58 p.m.) 

John Williams? Inventive? He's good, but all his music's the same...

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Richard Kleiner
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Steve
Re: John Williams + Inventiveness   Monday, November 9, 2009 (10:09 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: Mutiny from Crimson Tide  

> John Williams? Inventive? He's good, but all his music's the same...

And Hans Zimmer's isn't?



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Kyri
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Kyri
my thread   Monday, March 13, 2006 (9:58 p.m.) 

I started this thread about 5 years ago and now that i come back and look at the kinds of opinion i posted and the way i did it makes me want to throw up..
In actuality, i still do stand behind some of the opinions i expressed, however i HATE the way i expressed them. Zimmer is not my favorite composer by any means but that doesn't mean i can behave in such arrogant and ignorant manner towards other people. In the last five years of being in the USA as a music student i think i learned a lot more about things. Most importantly I learned how to appreciate things for what they are. I now realize that the things i wrote on this thread in the past were immature and i'm actually embarrassed reading them..!
Well, we all grow up eventually.

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