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Comments about the soundtrack for Enemy at the Gates (James Horner)
Schindler's? No. History? Yes!

Brendan Anderson
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Bill Harnsberger
Tim Perrine
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Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Saturday, March 17, 2001 (5:51 a.m.) 

Just wanted to clear up/put to rest the whole "Horner using part of Schindler's list" thing. Williams at one point after writing Schindler's list said the theme was largely based on an old Jewish folk tune...how much or how little it's "based" I don't know, BUT this does bring up an interesting point then. All three main characters in Enemy at the Gates are Jewish. Now, if you were James Horner, you needed a quiet theme for your main characters, the quiet theme is supposed to represent the charcters' personal feelings and struggles, AND the characters are all Jewish, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to pick a theme that was 1)based on a Jewish folk tune, and 2)was (because of Schinlder's) recognized by almost everyone in the world as having "Jewish" connotations?

This is not a "rip-off"...this was a well informed and smart decision on the composer's part.

-Brendan

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Bill Harnsberger
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Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Saturday, March 17, 2001 (7:09 a.m.) 

I agree. I think the theme is one of the best part of the score, especially towards the end. For me, it's some of the other stuff he uses that makes much of the score a mish-mash. Frankly, until someone brought it up, I didn;t even make the connection with Schindler's List.


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Tim Perrine
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Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (8:07 a.m.) 

So, by your logic, can Jerry Goldsmith take Williams' Star Wars theme and use it in the next Star Trek film? Like Star Wars, the Star Trek characters are in space AND audiences associate Star Wars with space.

Even if Schindler's List is based on a Jewish folk song, the composition is still largely John Williams' and is clearly associated with John Williams. He did it first. There are plenty of other Jewish folk songs that Horner could have used to achieve the same effect- but apparently Horner is more concerned with counting his money than going out and doing actual research.

> Just wanted to clear up/put to rest the whole "Horner using part of
> Schindler's list" thing. Williams at one point after writing
> Schindler's list said the theme was largely based on an old Jewish folk
> tune...how much or how little it's "based" I don't know, BUT
> this does bring up an interesting point then. All three main characters in
> Enemy at the Gates are Jewish. Now, if you were James Horner, you needed a
> quiet theme for your main characters, the quiet theme is supposed to
> represent the charcters' personal feelings and struggles, AND the
> characters are all Jewish, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to
> pick a theme that was 1)based on a Jewish folk tune, and 2)was (because of
> Schinlder's) recognized by almost everyone in the world as having
> "Jewish" connotations?

> This is not a "rip-off"...this was a well informed and smart
> decision on the composer's part.

> -Brendan


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Brendan Anderson
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Tim Perrine
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (9:32 a.m.) 

> So, by your logic, can Jerry Goldsmith take Williams' Star Wars theme and
> use it in the next Star Trek film? Like Star Wars, the Star Trek
> characters are in space AND audiences associate Star Wars with space.

No that doesn't follow from my logic because the Star Wars theme is not a folksong (contrary to what pop culture probably regaurds it as by now ). Folksongs are public domain...just because one composer uses it in a composition or film score first doesn't mean that now NOBODY can use it. Horner had every right to use the folktune and shouldn't be ridiculed for it. Besides, apart from the descending 5ths, Horner's use of the tune was different: with a different chord structure and different orchestration.

> There are plenty of other Jewish folk songs
> that Horner could have used to achieve the same effect- but apparently
> Horner is more concerned with counting his money than going out and doing
> actual research.

Now, why do you have to go assume things like that? You don't know any more than I do why Horner chose the music he did, and until you do, it's not right to go making those kind of accusations...and what other widely known folksong would you have Horner use? The Dradle song wouldn't have exactly fit...

-Brendan

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Tim Perrine
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Brendan Anderson
JnB
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (10:28 a.m.) 

> No that doesn't follow from my logic because the Star Wars theme is not a
> folksong (contrary to what pop culture probably regaurds it as by now
> ). Folksongs are public domain...just because one composer uses it in a
> composition or film score first doesn't mean that now NOBODY can use it.

They can use it- but they'll stir up the same controversy that Horner has. The theme from Schindler's List is credited as "Theme from Schindler's List" by John Williams. Not "Obscure Jewish Folk Song" by Anonymous. It doesn't matter how much Williams' theme is based on that song, it still is his own composition. It's immensely famous- and thus makes Horner look like a gigantic ass for adapting the theme to his score. And besides, while I haven't seen the film, does Judaism actually play a large role in the film? I'm willing to bet that Horner admires the Schindler's List theme and was waiting for an opportunity to use it as a major theme in one of his scores. If you'll listen to other post-Schindler's List Horner scores like Titanic, you'll find that he has used that theme in passing... Wait, a second, were Jack and Rose Jewish?? Oh, yeah, that's why he used it...

> Now, why do you have to go assume things like that? You don't know any
> more than I do why Horner chose the music he did, and until you do, it's
> not right to go making those kind of accusations...and what other widely
> known folksong would you have Horner use? The Dradle song wouldn't have
> exactly fit...

Oh yeah. I'm totally off-base aren't I? Horner has never stole from other composers in the past, and he most certainly has never turned in a score that could by deemed by the masses as being totally lazy and uninspired. Also, I'm not Jewish, but I have a feeling that there's more to Judaism's musical heritage than the theme from Schindler's List and the Dreidle Song... I bet I could've found a worthy alternative after an hour of research at USC's music library.

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Brendan Anderson
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Tim Perrine

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Tim Perrine
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (12:53 p.m.) 

> They can use it- but they'll stir up the same controversy that Horner has.

Controversy or not, public domain is public domain...we can only guess at any other intentions Horner had...you seem to assume he was just sitting in the dark in his little studio patiently waiting for the phone to ring with a call about a movie in which he could finaly use Williams' material as his own...something he had been ploting for years and years I'm sure...And I'm sure he's just sitting around cackeling with evil delight as he shouts out, "You fools! I can write music like Schindler's List too!!! Look at me!!! Love me!!! worship me!!!"

...Not bloody likely

> The theme from Schindler's List is credited as "Theme from
> Schindler's List" by John Williams. Not "Obscure Jewish Folk
> Song" by Anonymous.

Just because the folk song isn't credited in the title doesn't mean it doesn't exist...come now...

> It doesn't matter how much Williams' theme is
> based on that song, it still is his own composition.

...and Horner's theme is Horner's own composition incorporating the same tune. What's the problem?

> It's immensely
> famous- and thus makes Horner look like a gigantic ass for adapting the
> theme to his score.

It's not his fault if his "irrate" listeners are ill-informed...

> And besides, while I haven't seen the film, does
> Judaism actually play a large role in the film?

It sure does.

> If you'll
> listen to other post-Schindler's List Horner scores like Titanic, you'll
> find that he has used that theme in passing...

In which track did that occur? I'd like to hear it as well...

> Oh yeah. I'm totally off-base aren't I? Horner has never stole from other
> composers in the past, and he most certainly has never turned in a score
> that could by deemed by the masses as being totally lazy and uninspired.

No you're not totaly off-base...indeed Horner has borrowed (stole, whatever) from other composers and also created plenty of bland uninspired scores...but let's not single him out...almost every major film composer has been guilty of that same thing at one point in their career.

> Also, I'm not Jewish, but I have a feeling that there's more to Judaism's
> musical heritage than the theme from Schindler's List and the Dreidle
> Song...

Of course there is...all I'm saying is, why can't he use any Jewish folk song he wants? Why can't any composer use any folk song they want?

-Brendan

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Tim Perrine
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Brendan Anderson

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Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (3:40 p.m.) 

> Controversy or not, public domain is public domain...

I couldn't care less about it being in the public domain. I'm not arguing whether Horner CAN steal the theme, I'm arguing whether or not he SHOULD have stole it. What I'm trying to say here, and the point I'm repeating for the 3rd time is that the music is credited to John Williams whether he borrowed from a piece in the public domain or not. Horner's theme sounds JUST LIKE this piece in which JOHN WILLIAMS is given sole credit except for a few modifications- and thus it sounds like Horner stole from John Williams' theme. I'm willing to bet that this is EXACTLY the case and not some happy coincidence like you seem to claim it to be.

we can only guess at
> any other intentions Horner had...you seem to assume he was just sitting
> in the dark in his little studio patiently waiting for the phone to ring
> with a call about a movie in which he could finaly use Williams'
> material as his own...something he had been ploting for years and years
> I'm sure...And I'm sure he's just sitting around cackeling with evil
> delight as he shouts out, "You fools! I can write music like
> Schindler's List too!!! Look at me!!! Love me!!! worship me!!!"

Uhhhh...no. As fun as it would be, I don't really think of Horner as a cartoony supervillain. I live in the real world. He HAS hinted at themes before in his other scores- then to come out and introduce them as major themes in following scores. I'm sure this was the case with EATG. He used it in Titanic and then waited for an opportunity to use it as a major theme- low and behold an Eastern European/ Russian themed movie came along a few years later.

> ...and Horner's theme is Horner's own composition incorporating the
> same tune. What's the problem?

The problem is that it was already done only 7 years earlier and with an assload of success!! The Schindler's List theme is still fresh in everyone's minds- and not just OUR (The filmscore fans) minds- but the film-going public's minds! It's associated exclusively with the Holocaust as Schindler's List is the definitive film on the subject. Williams' music is sacred! For another composer to take that theme and use it in their own score so soon after that film was released shows a lack of respect for the composer and the movie and that includes the subject material.

> In which track did that occur? I'd like to hear it as well...

Track 10 (6:16 - 6:23). It's clear proof that your theory is hogwash. Horner is a hack. He didn't happen to stumble upon the "old Jewish folksong" that coincidentally sounds similar to Schindler's List upon writing his score for EATG. What he did is outright plagiarism...

> but let's not single him out...almost every major film composer
> has been guilty of that same thing at one point in their career.

Man, I get so sick of answering this response from Horner defenders. Let's look at it this way: Say there was a thief named Jerry Goldsmith who stole some candy from a convenience store. He only did it once or twice. And generally, Jerry isn't prone to stealing candy. Now, there another thief named James Horner who steals 12-packs of beer from 100 different convenience stores- and he does it EVERY SINGLE DAY. Isn't it pretty obvious who is the worse thief is and who should be locked away in a prison??? Sure, what both did was wrong, but at least Jerry doesn't do it every 5 seconds and steals something smaller. THAT is why James Horner is constantly under fire for his lack of creativity and other famous composers aren't.

> Of course there is...all I'm saying is, why can't he use any Jewish folk
> song he wants? Why can't any composer use any folk song they want?

I've already explained this above. There are such traits among artists as good-taste, honor, and creativity...

BTW, could you explain to me HOW Judaism plays a major role in this movie? I honestly am curious. I was under the impression it was about 2 snipers after each other and a love triangle during the Battle of Stalingrad...

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Brendan Anderson
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Tim Perrine

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Tim Perrine
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (4:43 p.m.) 

> I couldn't care less about it being in the public domain. I'm not arguing
> whether Horner CAN steal the theme, I'm arguing whether or not he SHOULD
> have stole it.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Would I have liked him to use a different theme? Sure I would have. But I don't think he's a bad person for using what he did because of the reasons I've already laid out. You seem to regaurd him as the devil of the film scoring industry. At least we still agree on Arnold

> I'm sure this was the case with EATG. He used
> it in Titanic and then waited for an opportunity to use it as a major
> theme- low and behold an Eastern European/ Russian themed movie came along
> a few years later.

Again, as sure as you may be, you can't be certain and therefore your speculation is no more accurate or better than mine...

> Track 10 (6:16 - 6:23). It's clear proof that your theory is hogwash.

I shall listen again when I get ahold of my copy of Titanic again...thank you for posting the times.

> Horner is a hack. He didn't happen to stumble upon the "old Jewish
> folksong" that coincidentally sounds similar to Schindler's List upon
> writing his score for EATG. What he did is outright plagiarism...

Again, ethical plagarism: if you say so. Leagal plagarism: no. Even your speculation doesn't fit the leagal definition of plagarism.

> Man, I get so sick of answering this response from Horner defenders.
> THAT is why James Horner is
> constantly under fire for his lack of creativity and other famous
> composers aren't.

Well, he deserves most of it. I won't be the first to defend him by any means. I enjoy most of his music, but I too think his borrowing of other music is lame...however, I won't have people accusing him of being worse than he is.

> BTW, could you explain to me HOW Judaism plays a major role in this movie?
> I honestly am curious. I was under the impression it was about 2 snipers
> after each other and a love triangle during the Battle of Stalingrad...

Sure I don't want to spoil anything for you, but I can tell you that the girl that the Russian sniper falls in love with (both of them are Jewish) learns midway through the movie that her parents were exterminated by the Nazis...she then decides to join the Russian sniper guy to avenge her parents' deaths and fight for all Jewish people who are in danger of being wiped out by the Nazis.

I love debating this stuff with you Tim 'cause you don't pull any punches and you're damn well informed (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really serious) Who knew these review page message boards could be so fun?

-Brendan

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Tim Perrine
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Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (9:36 a.m.) 

> Well, that's a matter of opinion. Would I have liked him to use a
> different theme? Sure I would have. But I don't think he's a bad person
> for using what he did because of the reasons I've already laid out. You
> seem to regaurd him as the devil of the film scoring industry.

No no no, I don't regard him as the devil of the film scoring industry. I have little respect for him compared to other composers as I think he has very little artistic integrity. But I think he has a few admirable qualities- most importantly he is a master when it comes to doing his job (up until Titanic at least- Zorro also) of musically capturing the visuals. His scores of recent- especially The Perfect Storm are largely wall-to-wall nonsense when heard with the film itself. (That's a whole different can of worms, though) In my collection I have 65 Horner CDs. I think I would have far less if I thought he was the devil. I regard The Rocketeer, Krull, Aliens, Legends of the Fall, and about a dozen others as film music masterpieces... I actaully do find the man and his plagiarism interesting... I'd do a dissertation in a heartbeat. There's already a pretty good one out there, though. Have you ever read this huge article Doug Adams wrote in an issue of Film Score Monthly that basically 4 pages of Horner bashing- pinpointing where he went wrong? It's the best article in that magazine I've ever read. It came out around Titanic time.

> Again, as sure as you may be, you can't be certain and therefore your
> speculation is no more accurate or better than mine...

That's partly true. I think, though, when you look at Horner's track record you can infer that my theory is closer to the truth, though... If we were talking about Howard Shore or Goldenthal here, I'd have to think that your theory is more correct. But, you're right, I haven't been tapping Horner's phone line, going through his trash, or interrogating his daughters, so I really don't know for sure.

> I shall listen again when I get ahold of my copy of Titanic again...thank
> you for posting the times.

No prob. It took me 20 minutes to find it- heaven forbid I'd have to sit through the entire disc to find it. (Just kidding Titanic fans!- I like Titanic)

> Again, ethical plagarism: if you say so. Leagal plagarism: no. Even your
> speculation doesn't fit the leagal definition of plagarism.

I meant ethical plagiarism. Let's leave legal plagiarism out of it. I really don't care about that.

> Sure I don't want to spoil anything for you, but I can tell you that
> the girl that the Russian sniper falls in love with (both of them are
> Jewish) learns midway through the movie that her parents were exterminated
> by the Nazis...she then decides to join the Russian sniper guy to avenge
> her parents' deaths and fight for all Jewish people who are in danger of
> being wiped out by the Nazis.

Thanks for that. I think I'll check out the film this week.

> I love debating this stuff with you Tim 'cause you don't pull any punches
> and you're damn well informed (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really
> serious) Who knew these review page message boards could be so fun?

Awww...shucks... Thanks, I enjoying debating with you too... you never give up/in, though, do you??

Tim


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Brendan Anderson
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digitalscene
Pawel Stroinski (Devoe)
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (10:00 a.m.) 

> No no no, I don't regard him as the devil of the film scoring industry. I
> have little respect for him compared to other composers as I think he has
> very little artistic integrity. I regard The
> Rocketeer, Krull, Aliens, Legends of the Fall, and about a dozen others as
> film music masterpieces... I actaully do find the man and his plagiarism
> interesting... I'd do a dissertation in a heartbeat.

I agree with pretty much all of that...and what's this about dissertations? You're always wanting to do dissertations on everything

> That's partly true. I think, though, when you look at Horner's track
> record you can infer that my theory is closer to the truth, though... If
> we were talking about Howard Shore or Goldenthal here, I'd have to think
> that your theory is more correct. But, you're right, I haven't been
> tapping Horner's phone line, going through his trash, or interrogating his
> daughters, so I really don't know for sure.

And all I'm saying is that (even though he has performed many many similar transgressions in the past) there are still many people out there willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I think they have a right to do that without their favorite composer being verbally crucified (how Horner could be anyone's "favorite" anymore totally eludes me... )

> I meant ethical plagiarism. Let's leave legal plagiarism out of it. I
> really don't care about that.

...Unless of course your name is John Barry

> Thanks for that. I think I'll check out the film this week.

It is quite good! It's long, but it doesn't feel long. It think it was very well done (however, some of the places where Horner adds his four note "evil" motif are just hilarious...such as when the German guy simply puts a cigarette in his mouth "duh duh duh dahhh!!!" )

> Awww...shucks... Thanks, I enjoying debating with you too... you never
> give up/in, though, do you??

Not until most of my point has gotten across, no ...unless of course I'm proven wrong...I hate that!

-Brendan

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Chris Tilton
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (2:01 p.m.) 

Ive been reading these posts and just wanted to throw something in the middle of this. I again don't know why some people just get off hating Horner. ( And this time I am not responding to anyone person- you all know who you are)

On the subject of ripping off music. John Williams took a big band number called Sing,Sing,Sing copied it almost note for note and renamed it Swing, Swing,Swing for his score in 1941. I don't hate Williams for this. It is a great piece of music and having little background in big band music I love that he introduced me to something pretty great.

So please guys and gals, all this nonsence is ridiculous. If you hate Horner fine, don't purchase his music. He's as gifted and talented as the other great composers of our time. He has borrowed,and copied his own work at times, but so has every other composer out there. :-)

Digitalscene

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Digitalscene
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Thursday, March 22, 2001 (7:07 a.m.) 

>He has borrowed,and copied his own work at times, but so has every other
>composer out there. :-)

I strongly disagree. As Tim said, Williams and Goldsmith steal a piece of candy now and then, Horner steals a 6-pack of beer from 100 stores everyday. (A great analagy I might add!!)

> So please guys and gals, all this nonsence is ridiculous. If you hate
> Horner fine, don't purchase his music. He's as gifted and talented as the
> other great composers of our time.

That's like saying if you don't like it, don't express your opinion. If Horner creates music, we have every right to bash him, as the Horner lovers of course have every right to defend him.



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Digitalscene
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Yavar Moradi
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Saturday, March 31, 2001 (2:05 p.m.) 

> I strongly disagree. As Tim said, Williams and Goldsmith steal a piece of
> candy now and then, Horner steals a 6-pack of beer from 100 stores
> everyday. (A great analagy I might add!!)

And I strongly disagree. Goldsmith has used the same repeating pounding beat in every action film since Total Recall. His music was so incredible in the 70's and early 80's. Now everything sounds like Total Recall, or Rambo, or the Mummy. I can't tell them apart other than a few ethnic cues.

As I commented once before, Goldsmith swiped the theme of "Box" the ice robot from Logan's Run and reused it for the theme of the great owl in "The Secret Of NIMH" I happen to love both soundtracks so I am not bashing him here. Again don't want to repeat myself, but I can find similar examples for Williams.

> That's like saying if you don't like it, don't express your opinion. If
> Horner creates music, we have every right to bash him, as the Horner
> lovers of course have every right to defend him.

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone's opinion should be censored. So I guess we can just respectively disagree on these issues.


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Chris Tilton
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Wayneoon
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Saturday, March 31, 2001 (7:34 p.m.) 

> And I strongly disagree. Goldsmith has used the same repeating pounding
> beat in every action film since Total Recall. His music was so incredible
> in the 70's and early 80's. Now everything sounds like Total Recall, or
> Rambo, or the Mummy. I can't tell them apart other than a few ethnic cues.

Actually, I really agree with you on this one. To be honest, Goldsmith scores that I actually like are very far and few between. He uses the same crap over and over again and it is extremely unintersting to listen to. Oh, another generic French Horn theme with Percussion and Strings hitting short chords on the downbeats. Yippee...

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Josh
Enterprise
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Thursday, April 12, 2001 (11:21 p.m.) 

> Actually, I really agree with you on this one. To be honest, Goldsmith
> scores that I actually like are very far and few between. He uses the same
> crap over and over again and it is extremely unintersting to listen to.
> Oh, another generic French Horn theme with Percussion and Strings hitting
> short chords on the downbeats. Yippee...

Just want to drop my 2 cents worth. Being a composer myself, albeit not as great as those composers who are earning more than anyone of you out there combined, I must say, each and every composer has its own period where ideas and new inspirations are lacking. My best guess in this case, Horner was probably experimenting on the tune which he might have "borrowed" or "taken" and probably decides to create a variation of it. Remember Rachmaninoff who did a variation on a theme by Paganini? Or even certain rappers that took music from Edvard Grieg ( Morning from Peer Gynt Suite) or from Alexander Borodin (Polovtsian Dances). I think nobody or should I say far and few remarks were thrown to them about borrowing these tunes, public domain or not.

The fact is music is just music, it's when humans start to realise that they want to claim ownership of these stuff that everyone starts to hammer each other about who's being better.. I wonder did anyone claimed ownership to "Greensleeves" ?

Granted that there are people out there that don't like Horner's music. Granted, there are people out there that loved Horner's music. Everyone has their unique opinion and that's the most beautiful thing about us being human. There is no need to bash each other. Don't forget this movie potrays the horrors of war. Are we all going to be at war with each other because of difference of opinion? I certainly hope not.

Finally, all the composers from William to Horner to Goldsmith to Zimmer to Menken to Silvestri, they have their own style and they are good at what they are at. So, let's just give it to them. Perhaps we should try writing our own music, if we don't like the music they write

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Josh
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  In Response to:
Wayneoon
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Wednesday, October 17, 2001 (5:19 p.m.) 

> Just want to drop my 2 cents worth. Being a composer myself, albeit not as
> great as those composers who are earning more than anyone of you out there
> combined, I must say, each and every composer has its own period where
> ideas and new inspirations are lacking. My best guess in this case, Horner
> was probably experimenting on the tune which he might have
> "borrowed" or "taken" and probably decides to create a
> variation of it. Remember Rachmaninoff who did a variation on a theme by
> Paganini? Or even certain rappers that took music from Edvard Grieg (
> Morning from Peer Gynt Suite) or from Alexander Borodin (Polovtsian
> Dances). I think nobody or should I say far and few remarks were thrown to
> them about borrowing these tunes, public domain or not.

> The fact is music is just music, it's when humans start to realise that
> they want to claim ownership of these stuff that everyone starts to hammer
> each other about who's being better.. I wonder did anyone claimed
> ownership to "Greensleeves" ?

> Granted that there are people out there that don't like Horner's music.
> Granted, there are people out there that loved Horner's music. Everyone
> has their unique opinion and that's the most beautiful thing about us
> being human. There is no need to bash each other. Don't forget this movie
> potrays the horrors of war. Are we all going to be at war with each other
> because of difference of opinion? I certainly hope not.

> Finally, all the composers from William to Horner to Goldsmith to Zimmer
> to Menken to Silvestri, they have their own style and they are good at
> what they are at. So, let's just give it to them. Perhaps we should try
> writing our own music, if we don't like the music they write

Well said


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Enterprise
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  In Response to:
Wayneoon
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Friday, January 11, 2002 (6:07 a.m.) 

> Just want to drop my 2 cents worth. Being a composer myself, albeit not as
> great as those composers who are earning more than anyone of you out there
> combined, I must say, each and every composer has its own period where
> ideas and new inspirations are lacking. My best guess in this case, Horner
> was probably experimenting on the tune which he might have
> "borrowed" or "taken" and probably decides to create a
> variation of it. Remember Rachmaninoff who did a variation on a theme by
> Paganini? Or even certain rappers that took music from Edvard Grieg (
> Morning from Peer Gynt Suite) or from Alexander Borodin (Polovtsian
> Dances). I think nobody or should I say far and few remarks were thrown to
> them about borrowing these tunes, public domain or not.

> The fact is music is just music, it's when humans start to realise that
> they want to claim ownership of these stuff that everyone starts to hammer
> each other about who's being better.. I wonder did anyone claimed
> ownership to "Greensleeves" ?

> Granted that there are people out there that don't like Horner's music.
> Granted, there are people out there that loved Horner's music. Everyone
> has their unique opinion and that's the most beautiful thing about us
> being human. There is no need to bash each other. Don't forget this movie
> potrays the horrors of war. Are we all going to be at war with each other
> because of difference of opinion? I certainly hope not.

> Finally, all the composers from William to Horner to Goldsmith to Zimmer
> to Menken to Silvestri, they have their own style and they are good at
> what they are at. So, let's just give it to them. Perhaps we should try
> writing our own music, if we don't like the music they write

It is very interesting when you mentioned Menken...
However, Alan Menken is not a usual Hollywood composer...
...and he got the hornor he doesnt deserve...:)
Forget about it.:b


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Yavar Moradi
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  In Response to:
Digitalscene
And in Mulan, Goldsmith's GREATEST score of the 90s,   Saturday, November 3, 2001 (10:50 p.m.) 

Goldsmith rips off his burglar guy theme from Dennis the Menace note for note and uses it for the Huns to great effect. But who cares? That score rules! Get the promo if you can...

See, it doesn't matter if it's done well. And that analogy is taking it a bit too far. Goldsmith and Williams rip off more often than that, and Horner less often than presented in the analogy. Horner is still the most unoriginal composer working, but SO WHAT? He still has something new every score. Judge it on musical terms, not originality (and EATG is most certainly NOT an intentional rip from Schindler's List.)

Yavar

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Pawel Stroinski (Devoe)
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  In Response to:
Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Wednesday, June 12, 2002 (12:53 p.m.) 

> It is quite good! It's long, but it doesn't feel long. It think it was
> very well done (however, some of the places where Horner adds his four
> note "evil" motif are just hilarious...such as when the German
> guy simply puts a cigarette in his mouth "duh duh duh dahhh!!!"
> )

Maybe good old James tries to tell us how bad smoking is?


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JnB
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  In Response to:
Tim Perrine
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Thursday, April 25, 2002 (2:20 p.m.) 

Before I throw in my two cent, I figured i might as well say that I found another instance of Horner using the Schindler's List in a massively popular work. In the "Re-Entry & Splashdown" track of Apollo 13 from 2:52-3:00 the theme is clearly stated in a very similar way to EATG. The theme is also used from 3:16 for about ten seconds before it trails off into underscore. Now then...

I think that, in a way, this isn't serious plagiarism because it's used to create the atmosphere. I think it's very possible (maybe probable) that Horner threw it in to stir up the memories the audience had about the movie Schindler's List and consider EATG to be similarly emotional. I think it was just an old trick of referencing another, memorable piece to enhance the audience's view of the on-screen image.

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blade runner
(209.83.210.3)

  In Response to:
Brendan Anderson

  Responses to this Comment:
Brendan Anderson
Pepito
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Monday, March 19, 2001 (10:25 a.m.) 

> Just wanted to clear up/put to rest the whole "Horner using part of
> Schindler's list" thing. Williams at one point after writing
> Schindler's list said the theme was largely based on an old Jewish folk
> tune...how much or how little it's "based" I don't know, BUT
> this does bring up an interesting point then. All three main characters in
> Enemy at the Gates are Jewish. Now, if you were James Horner, you needed a
> quiet theme for your main characters, the quiet theme is supposed to
> represent the charcters' personal feelings and struggles, AND the
> characters are all Jewish, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to
> pick a theme that was 1)based on a Jewish folk tune, and 2)was (because of
> Schinlder's) recognized by almost everyone in the world as having
> "Jewish" connotations?

> This is not a "rip-off"...this was a well informed and smart
> decision on the composer's part.

> -Brendan

Now that's just the most ridiculous, straw grasping defense I've heard yet for this score. For crying out loud!


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Brendan Anderson
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  In Response to:
blade runner

  Responses to this Comment:
Chris Tilton
Re: Hmmm....   Monday, March 19, 2001 (1:00 p.m.) 

> Now that's just the most ridiculous, straw grasping defense I've heard yet
> for this score. For crying out loud!

Would you care to expand on that or would you just like to spend some more quality time insulting my argument some more?

-Brendan

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Chris Tilton
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  In Response to:
Brendan Anderson
Re: Hmmm....   Thursday, March 22, 2001 (6:55 a.m.) 

> Would you care to expand on that or would you just like to spend some more
> quality time insulting my argument some more?

I'll expand on it! Horner uses that same theme in the scores to Apollo 13 and Titanic, neither of which has to do with Russians or Jews. Besides, as Horner said, he likes to start with a "clean slate" with each score, so no doubt he's completely forgotten everything he's used or ripped off in the past.

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Pepito
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  In Response to:
blade runner
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Saturday, March 24, 2001 (7:21 a.m.) 

> Now that's just the most ridiculous, straw grasping defense I've heard yet
> for this score. For crying out loud!

No, my sir, the most ridiculous I've heard about this score, it the amount of stupids post I'm watching tying to explain that theme is a rip from Schindler's List.
It's a close theme, but it's not a rip, like I've never heard that Zimmer rips Rozsa's El Cid in Prynce of Egypt, and more that I've never heard...
But it seems that the fact for Horner criticism's wave is to look for a rip in his new works...

Oh my god!! you haven't anything better to do?...

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Jonathan Broxton
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  In Response to:
Brendan Anderson

  Responses to this Comment:
Jon Williams
Chris Tilton
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (9:20 a.m.) 

As one of Horner's most ardent fans, and having heard every single one of Horner's released scores to date, I can categorically tell you that Horner's EATG theme is NOT based on Schindler's List OR a Jewish folk song. It's a reworking of his own "Heritage of the Wolf" theme from Balto, which was itself originally derived from a piece by Mahler (I forget which one).

The connotations here are to do with Russia, not Judaism... in Balto, the main character was a Russian husky dog/wolf thing, and Horner seemingly felt that the style of writing he used to depict the wolf's heritage would also be the correct way to depict the Russian beauty Tania in EATG (it is her "theme" that's causing all the controversy".

Hope this makes sense.

Jonathan

> Just wanted to clear up/put to rest the whole "Horner using part of
> Schindler's list" thing. Williams at one point after writing
> Schindler's list said the theme was largely based on an old Jewish folk
> tune...how much or how little it's "based" I don't know, BUT
> this does bring up an interesting point then. All three main characters in
> Enemy at the Gates are Jewish. Now, if you were James Horner, you needed a
> quiet theme for your main characters, the quiet theme is supposed to
> represent the charcters' personal feelings and struggles, AND the
> characters are all Jewish, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to
> pick a theme that was 1)based on a Jewish folk tune, and 2)was (because of
> Schinlder's) recognized by almost everyone in the world as having
> "Jewish" connotations?

> This is not a "rip-off"...this was a well informed and smart
> decision on the composer's part.

> -Brendan


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Jon Williams
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  In Response to:
Jonathan Broxton
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (11:15 p.m.) 

> As one of Horner's most ardent fans, and having heard every single one of
> Horner's released scores to date, I can categorically tell you that
> Horner's EATG theme is NOT based on Schindler's List OR a Jewish folk
> song. It's a reworking of his own "Heritage of the Wolf" theme
> from Balto, which was itself originally derived from a piece by Mahler (I
> forget which one).

> The connotations here are to do with Russia, not Judaism... in Balto, the
> main character was a Russian husky dog/wolf thing, and Horner seemingly
> felt that the style of writing he used to depict the wolf's heritage would
> also be the correct way to depict the Russian beauty Tania in EATG (it is
> her "theme" that's causing all the controversy".

> Hope this makes sense.

BAM! HA HA!!! yeah i noticed this too just today i was listening to balto and out of the blue something sounded like EATG! SWEET!!!!
Jon
> Jonathan


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Chris Tilton
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  In Response to:
Jonathan Broxton
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Thursday, March 22, 2001 (6:52 a.m.) 

> Horner's EATG theme is NOT based on Schindler's List OR a Jewish folk
> song. It's a reworking of his own "Heritage of the Wolf" theme
> from Balto. The connotations here are to do with Russia, not Judaism...

Then why did he use this SAME theme (not as a major one) in Apollo 13 and Titanic?



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Ryan
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  In Response to:
Brendan Anderson
Re: Schindler's? No. History? Yes!   Tuesday, March 20, 2001 (7:16 p.m.) 

> AND the
> characters are all Jewish, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to
> pick a theme that was 1)based on a Jewish folk tune, and 2)was (because of
> Schinlder's) recognized by almost everyone in the world as having
> "Jewish" connotations?

Wow this is stupid. Should Randy Newman have scored Ben Stiller's (Jewish) character in MEET THE PARENTS with "If I Were A Rich Man" from FIDDLER ON THE ROOF?

Ryan

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