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Comments about the soundtrack for Star Wars: The Last Jedi (John Williams)
Christian, I'm disappointed in you

Intestinal Worm
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  Responses to this Comment:
Jerry Elfstri
Bryn Mercado
CampOla
Edmund Meinerts
Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Sunday, January 7, 2018 (9:13 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: Star Wars: The Last Jedi  

Hey Christian, have you read this article? https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/

The points you've made against the film are noticeably the same nondescript complaints heard from the highly vocal haters. 'Pacing issues'? Watch it again. Viewers experience pacing issues when their expectations aren't being met. Yes, it has pacing that's different from previous Star Wars films. Guess what? It's a NEW Star Wars film. It should have different pacing, otherwise we're just watching the same films again. 'Fallacies of logic'? Such as? You didn't specify any. 'Unsatisfactory behaviour'? So you wanted Luke to stay the same. Great idea - that sounds really interesting and exciting. And I suppose then you'd be complaining about lack of character development. 'Pointless subplots' - is a subplot pointless because the character's don't succeed in their plan? Maybe it's about the characters rather than the plan. One of the main themes of the film is characters learning from their mistakes. Who the hell wants to watch a film where the heroes never screw up? 'Poor performances by new characters' - You mean Rose and Holdo? This seems awfully like personal opinion presented as consensus. I haven't heard anyone complain about their performances. Is the reason you don't like them because they're women?

Why is Leia using the Force to save herself laughable? Because she's a woman? Do you secretly hate women, Christian? A person can survive exposed in the vacuum of space for up to 90 seconds before they die of asphyxiation. The Force can be used to move objects telekinetically. Even the lightest directional force applied to an object in zero gravity will send the object in that direction forever unless acted upon by another force or object. Leia has the Force - we've seen this. Like Luke, she uses Force telekinesis for the first time in a moment of life-or-death desperation and pushes herself in the direction of the ship. What's so offensive about watching something that makes perfect sense? Is it because deep down you can't stand to see a woman save herself?

Tip: if the critics love a movie, but the kind of shitheads who yell things at the screen and storm out of a theatre don't, then the critics have it right.
big grin



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Jerry Elfstri
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  In Response to:
Intestinal Worm
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Monday, January 8, 2018 (6:26 a.m.) 

Totally agree with Christian's review smile



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Bryn Mercado
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  In Response to:
Intestinal Worm
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Monday, January 8, 2018 (8:39 a.m.) 

> Hey Christian, have you read this article?
> https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/

> The points you've made against the film are noticeably the same
> nondescript complaints heard from the highly vocal haters. 'Pacing
> issues'? Watch it again. Viewers experience pacing issues when their
> expectations aren't being met. Yes, it has pacing that's different from
> previous Star Wars films. Guess what? It's a NEW Star Wars film. It should
> have different pacing, otherwise we're just watching the same films again.
> 'Fallacies of logic'? Such as? You didn't specify any. 'Unsatisfactory
> behaviour'? So you wanted Luke to stay the same. Great idea - that sounds
> really interesting and exciting. And I suppose then you'd be complaining
> about lack of character development. 'Pointless subplots' - is a subplot
> pointless because the character's don't succeed in their plan? Maybe it's
> about the characters rather than the plan. One of the main themes of the
> film is characters learning from their mistakes. Who the hell wants to
> watch a film where the heroes never screw up? 'Poor performances by new
> characters' - You mean Rose and Holdo? This seems awfully like personal
> opinion presented as consensus. I haven't heard anyone complain about
> their performances. Is the reason you don't like them because they're
> women?

> Why is Leia using the Force to save herself laughable? Because she's a
> woman? Do you secretly hate women, Christian? A person can survive exposed
> in the vacuum of space for up to 90 seconds before they die of
> asphyxiation. The Force can be used to move objects telekinetically. Even
> the lightest directional force applied to an object in zero gravity will
> send the object in that direction forever unless acted upon by another
> force or object. Leia has the Force - we've seen this. Like Luke, she uses
> Force telekinesis for the first time in a moment of life-or-death
> desperation and pushes herself in the direction of the ship. What's so
> offensive about watching something that makes perfect sense? Is it because
> deep down you can't stand to see a woman save herself?

> Tip: if the critics love a movie, but the kind of shitheads who yell
> things at the screen and storm out of a theatre don't, then the critics
> have it right.

> big grin

Good try but Clemmensen's reviews are horse shit for other reasons. He is a feminazi-supporting libtard. He'd probably want to mash it up with Admiral Holdo.



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CampOla
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  In Response to:
Intestinal Worm

  Responses to this Comment:
Vader47000
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Monday, January 8, 2018 (9:26 p.m.) 

> Hey Christian, have you read this article?
> https://bittergertrude.com/2018/01/04/why-so-many-men-hate-the-last-jedi-but-cant-agree-on-why/

> The points you've made against the film are noticeably the same
> nondescript complaints heard from the highly vocal haters. 'Pacing
> issues'? Watch it again. Viewers experience pacing issues when their
> expectations aren't being met. Yes, it has pacing that's different from
> previous Star Wars films. Guess what? It's a NEW Star Wars film. It should
> have different pacing, otherwise we're just watching the same films again.
> 'Fallacies of logic'? Such as? You didn't specify any. 'Unsatisfactory
> behaviour'? So you wanted Luke to stay the same. Great idea - that sounds
> really interesting and exciting. And I suppose then you'd be complaining
> about lack of character development. 'Pointless subplots' - is a subplot
> pointless because the character's don't succeed in their plan? Maybe it's
> about the characters rather than the plan. One of the main themes of the
> film is characters learning from their mistakes. Who the hell wants to
> watch a film where the heroes never screw up? 'Poor performances by new
> characters' - You mean Rose and Holdo? This seems awfully like personal
> opinion presented as consensus. I haven't heard anyone complain about
> their performances. Is the reason you don't like them because they're
> women?

> Why is Leia using the Force to save herself laughable? Because she's a
> woman? Do you secretly hate women, Christian? A person can survive exposed
> in the vacuum of space for up to 90 seconds before they die of
> asphyxiation. The Force can be used to move objects telekinetically. Even
> the lightest directional force applied to an object in zero gravity will
> send the object in that direction forever unless acted upon by another
> force or object. Leia has the Force - we've seen this. Like Luke, she uses
> Force telekinesis for the first time in a moment of life-or-death
> desperation and pushes herself in the direction of the ship. What's so
> offensive about watching something that makes perfect sense? Is it because
> deep down you can't stand to see a woman save herself?

> Tip: if the critics love a movie, but the kind of shitheads who yell
> things at the screen and storm out of a theatre don't, then the critics
> have it right.

> big grin

Seriously, what was with his comment about Laura Dern's "fangirl performance"? What does that even mean? Was it the fact that her character held a deep respect and loyalty to Leia which was very clearly articulated in the dialogue? I feel like CC hasn't watched the same film I have.


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Vader47000
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  In Response to:
CampOla
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Tuesday, January 9, 2018 (3:58 a.m.) 

> Seriously, what was with his comment about Laura Dern's 'fangirl
> performance'? What does that even mean? Was it the fact that her character
> held a deep respect and loyalty to Leia which was very clearly articulated
> in the dialogue? I feel like CC hasn't watched the same film I have.

Agreed. What strikes me most about reviews critical of the movie is that people who hate it are basing their opinion on an assumption that things they need for the story to make sense aren't there, whereas those elements are in fact in the movie and the complaining viewer just didn't seem to notice or understand what was actually going on.

For instance, the notion that the star destroyers not being able to catch up to the Resistance cruisers at sub-light was "inexplicable," when the reason they couldn't was explicitly spelled out in the dialogue — the resistance cruisers were smaller and faster, and the First Order officers saw no need to expend fuel resources trying to catch up to them when they would either run out of fuel trying to escape at sub-light or run out of fuel making one last hyperspace jump, which was pointless since the First Order could track them.

Seriously, when people complain about "plot holes" or "pacing issues" I seriously have no idea what they're talking about — and whatever specific examples they're able to bring up I find I'm able to easily refute with a simple explanation.

At this point, I'm starting to think I saw not just a different movie than these people, but, given their efforts to claim the movie "broke Star Wars," that I have been watching a completely different franchise than them for 40 years.


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Edmund Meinerts
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  In Response to:
Intestinal Worm

  Responses to this Comment:
Vader47000
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Tuesday, January 9, 2018 (2:29 a.m.) 

> 'Pacing
> issues'? Watch it again. Viewers experience pacing issues when their
> expectations aren't being met. Yes, it has pacing that's different from
> previous Star Wars films. Guess what? It's a NEW Star Wars film. It should
> have different pacing, otherwise we're just watching the same films again.

Eh, I can't agree with you here. Bad pacing is bad pacing, and there's simply no getting past the fact that the Finn/Rose on Canto Bight subplot didn't contribute anything to the overall plot of the film. Perhaps you will argue that it wasn't about plot, but rather character or the importance of showing how some plans don't work out...fair enough, but in that case I don't think the film followed up on that comprehensively enough. The Finn/Rose relationship felt rushed, the payoff of Rose stopping Finn from sacrificing himself felt a bit unearned. And after all, things constantly go wrong for our heroes in The Empire Strikes Back (perhaps an intentional effort was being made to mirror that film) and yet I never feel like what they are doing is pointless, nor do I get the impression that nothing would have been any different had they not attempted their plan the way I did

I did enjoy The Last Jedi in many ways, and I don't agree with much of Christian's stance on the film (nor do I think it should have colored the review to the extent that it did, but that's another matter entirely). But to immediately knee-jerk accuse anyone who points out its flaws of being a woman-hating fanboy is the wrong response. I've got no issues with Leia using the Force to save herself. I have all sorts of issues with the way she saved herself, though. Couldn't that situation have been handled in a way that was a bit less...laughable? Like maybe not have her float for several minutes before suddenly waking up out of nowhere? If you were blasted into the gulf of space and had Force powers, wouldn't you immediately use them to try and save yourself rather than wait, almost as if you know you're in a movie and are teasing the audience with your imminent demise and trying to make things as melodramatic as possible?


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Vader47000
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Edmund Meinerts

  Responses to this Comment:
CampOla
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you [EDITED TWICE]   Tuesday, January 9, 2018 (3:47 a.m.) 

> Eh, I can't agree with you here. Bad pacing is bad pacing, and there's
> simply no getting past the fact that the Finn/Rose on Canto Bight subplot
> didn't contribute anything to the overall plot of the film. Perhaps you
> will argue that it wasn't about plot, but rather character or the
> importance of showing how some plans don't work out...fair enough, but in
> that case I don't think the film followed up on that comprehensively
> enough. The Finn/Rose relationship felt rushed, the payoff of Rose
> stopping Finn from sacrificing himself felt a bit unearned. And after all,
> things constantly go wrong for our heroes in The Empire Strikes
> Back
(perhaps an intentional effort was being made to mirror that
> film) and yet I never feel like what they are doing is pointless, nor do I
> get the impression that nothing would have been any different had they not
> attempted their plan the way I did

> I did enjoy The Last Jedi in many ways, and I don't agree with much
> of Christian's stance on the film (nor do I think it should have colored
> the review to the extent that it did, but that's another matter entirely).
> But to immediately knee-jerk accuse anyone who points out its flaws of
> being a woman-hating fanboy is the wrong response. I've got no issues with
> Leia using the Force to save herself. I have all sorts of issues with the
> way she saved herself, though. Couldn't that situation have been
> handled in a way that was a bit less...laughable? Like maybe not have her
> float for several minutes before suddenly waking up out of nowhere? If you
> were blasted into the gulf of space and had Force powers, wouldn't you
> immediately use them to try and save yourself rather than wait,
> almost as if you know you're in a movie and are teasing the audience with
> your imminent demise and trying to make things as melodramatic as
> possible?

The Canto Bight scenes had a pretty impactful role on the plot actually.

From a character standpoint, they are the path for Finn to learn about embracing a cause bigger than his own survival. Until then, his only motivation for the two films has been about, as Maz says, running away from the fight. At the beginning of Last Jedi, all he wants is to save Rey and get away from the Resistance. The trip to Canto Bight and aftermath leads him finally to embrace the spirit of rebellion, which is exemplified by his attempt at self-sacrifice in the final battle.

Rose breaks up this attempt because, having already dealt with her sister sacrificing herself at the beginning, she can't let someone else she has grown close to do that for her.

More fundamentally, though, Poe, Finn and Rose's hackneyed plan and the improvisation they need to get through it leads to them deciding to employ an off-brand codebreaker whose loyalties are ultimately dubious. While DJ is sincere in helping them, he also has information he's able to trade with the First Order to save himself. This contrasts him with Finn in the journey to accept a cause. But he got the information about the escaping cargo ships because he overheard Poe and Finn recklessly discussing it on the comms (hence that rather obvious cutaway to him during the conversation listening in).

This directly leads to the First Order discovering the ships and firing upon them, getting even more Resistance troops killed and forcing Holdo to sacrifice herself to save the rest. It also likely accelerated the final battle since there's no telling if the First Order would have attacked Crait right then and there. But it should be noted that because the First Order attacks right then and there, Luke has to use his Force Projection trick to help them right then (as I assume that once they are in the clear, Leia jumps on the Millennium Falcon and goes to Ahch-To herself). So, if you'd like, you may blame Poe for the death of Luke, but that's for another debate.

Anyway, the result of leading a mutiny in support of a foolhardy mission that gets even more people killed is a huge slap in the face to Poe (and not just the literal slap Leia gave him earlier), who finally realizes that noble sacrifice for short term gain isn't doing the Resistance any favors. That's why he orders the skim speeders to break off the attack on the battering ram cannon in the face of certain destruction, with the hope of finding another way to regroup. (Interestingly enough, Finn by the end is pretty much in the same position Poe was at the beginning — turning off his comms when ordered to retreat so he could pursue the plan he prefers without regard to the bigger picture).

On top of that, just from a filmmaking perspective, the whole Canto Bight plan is meant to subvert audience expectations that the heroes always come out on top in one way or another (tying into the film's primary theme of learning from failure). Sure, Empire Strikes Back is filled with defeat for the heroes, but defeat with purpose, as they inevitably are either retreating in the face of doom or doing enough to thwart the actual plans of the bad guys, which is in its own way a victory. Here, the entire plot is set up to make us think that of course the characters we know are right and the ones we don't are wrong. Holdo thus represents just another outsider to the audience who we have no reason to believe knows what she's doing. That's why Ackbar had to be removed from the story, since having him in charge would not have inspired Poe to go against his orders (maybe abruptly killing him off with a one-line explanation wasn't the way to go, but it didn't hurt the story). This is the classic trope in action and sci-fi, where the heroes suddenly find themselves outranked by characters who either don't know what they are doing or don't care, forcing the heroes to disobey them for the greater good. James Bond and James Kirk do this kind of stuff all the time (on Star Trek, the 'crazy admiral' trope is rampant).


(Message edited on Tuesday, January 9, 2018, at 7:26 a.m. and Tuesday, January 9, 2018, at 7:34 a.m.)


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CampOla
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  In Response to:
Vader47000

  Responses to this Comment:
Vader47000
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Tuesday, January 9, 2018 (4:17 a.m.) 

That was an excellent post. Articaulted all of my thoughts perfectly. Also here’s some excellent reading on Luke’s character in the film and why it wasn’t the colossal failure people are making it out to be:

http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/

There’s also some references to Rian Johnson’s excellent homages to Samurai films (which any Star Wars fan knows was a huge inspiration for the original film).

This was the most Star Wars film since Star Wars which makes all of the fanboy outcry tragically ironic,


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Vader47000
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  In Response to:
CampOla
Re: Christian, I'm disappointed in you   Tuesday, January 9, 2018 (7:31 a.m.) 

> That was an excellent post. Articaulted all of my thoughts perfectly. Also
> here’s some excellent reading on Luke’s character in the film and why it
> wasn’t the colossal failure people are making it out to be:

> http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/

> There’s also some references to Rian Johnson’s excellent homages to
> Samurai films (which any Star Wars fan knows was a huge inspiration for
> the original film).

> This was the most Star Wars film since Star Wars which makes all of the
> fanboy outcry tragically ironic,

I also got a chuckle out of seeing the homage to 1927's Wings (first best picture Oscar winner) in the zoom-in through the casino tables to land on Finn at the end. Not because it was blatant or anything out of place, but because a few days earlier I had just watched a video about the best movie shots of all time and the Wings shot was one of the examples used in the video.


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