SUPPORT FILMTRACKS! CLICK HERE FIRST:
Amazon.com
Amazon.co.uk
iTunes (U.S.)
Amazon.ca
Amazon.fr
eBay (U.S.)
Amazon.de
Amazon.es
Half.com
Glisten Effect
Editorial Reviews
Scoreboard Forum
Viewer Ratings
Composers
Awards
   NEWEST MAJOR REVIEWS:
     1. Avengers: Endgame
    2. Shazam!
   3. Dumbo
  4. Captain Marvel
 5. HTTYD: The Hidden World
6. The Lego Movie 2
   CURRENT MOST POPULAR REVIEWS:
         1. Batman
        2. Star Wars: The Last Jedi
       3. Apollo 13
      4. Edward Scissorhands
     5. How to Train Your Dragon
    6. Jurassic World: Kingdom
   7. First Man
  8. Solo: A Star Wars Story
 9. Justice League
10. Ready Player One
Home Page
Menu Options ▼
Comments about the soundtrack for Minority Report (John Williams)
MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares! *NM*

ethan[imf]
(dialin-212-144-148-026.arcor-ip.n
et)
Profile Picture

  Responses to this Comment:
fontinau
Pawel Stroinski
MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares! *NM*   Sunday, June 16, 2002 (3:39 a.m.) 



Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


fontinau
<Send E-Mail>
(cache-1.sbo.ma.webcache.rcn.net)

  In Response to:
ethan[imf]

  Responses to this Comment:
Martin
Michael
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Sunday, June 16, 2002 (8:20 a.m.) 

I care. This makes it, what? John William's third self-ripoff in a row (following Harry Potter and AotC). I swear, the guy's turning into James Horner.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Martin
(194.179.83.120)

  In Response to:
fontinau

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (3:56 a.m.) 

> I care. This makes it, what? John William's third self-ripoff in a row
> (following Harry Potter and AotC). I swear, the guy's turning into James
> Horner.

Exactly, JW is turning to James Horner,...

Im lucky to know about the latest score by Goldsmith...

LONG LIFE FOR GOLDSMITH
VIVA GOLDSMITH


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


juju-bean
(lsanca1-ar23-4-63-042-210.lsanca1
.dsl-verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Martin

  Responses to this Comment:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (7:42 a.m.) 

> Exactly, JW is turning to James Horner,...

> Im lucky to know about the latest score by Goldsmith...

> LONG LIFE FOR GOLDSMITH
VIVA GOLDSMITH

Just out of curiousity... have either of you, who are so quick to cry self-plagiarism, even heard the score?

And besides, Horner copies theme after theme, just because Williams's scores are similar stylisticaly it still doesn't compare to Horner. Aside from AotC "Love Theme," I haven't really heard anything written by Williams in which he recycles actual Thematic Material, but please show me where I'm wrong...

Of course, I have nothing against Goldsmith But, I still don't see how Williams is like Horner.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


fontinau
<Send E-Mail>
(cache-1.sbo.ma.webcache.rcn.net)

  In Response to:
juju-bean

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Harry Potter
juju-bean
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (9:17 a.m.) 

VIVA GOLDSMITH

> Just out of curiousity... have either of you, who are so quick to cry
> self-plagiarism, even heard the score?

I haven't. Maybe I should have added a disclaimer to my post: "IF what Ethan says is ture, THEN this will be John William's third self-ripoff in a row".

> I haven't really heard anything written
> by Williams in which he recycles actual Thematic Material, but please show
> me where I'm wrong...

Try listening to the Harry Potter aoundtrack sometime. The main theme is lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).Also, the Phantom Menace score took some passages from Jurassic Park, but that's a minor quibble.

> Of course, I have nothing against Goldsmith But, I still don't see how
> Williams is like Horner.

Not stylistically like Horner (although they do both tend to unsubtley beat listeners over the head with their motifs). Williams is becoming like Horner in that he is walking down the same self-plagiarizing path that Horner has been on since the early 90s.


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Kyri
<Send E-Mail>
(la-8-38.cytanet.com.cy)

  In Response to:
fontinau

  Responses to this Comment:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (12:09 p.m.) 

> VIVA GOLDSMITH

> I haven't. Maybe I should have added a disclaimer to my post: "IF
> what Ethan says is ture, THEN this will be John William's third
> self-ripoff in a row".

> Try listening to the Harry Potter aoundtrack sometime. The main theme is
> lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).Also, the Phantom
> Menace score took some passages from Jurassic Park, but that's a minor
> quibble.

> Not stylistically like Horner (although they do both tend to unsubtley
> beat listeners over the head with their motifs). Williams is becoming like
> Horner in that he is walking down the same self-plagiarizing path that
> Horner has been on since the early 90s.

What i like about Williams is that he takes some textural material from his other scores and developes them more extensively. This happens whether it is an action sequence or a main theme. The thing about Williams is that he manages not to become boring-unlike Horner who almost ALWAYS sounds the same. Take for example the genious composer Elliot Goldenthal: He uses the same atonal techniques but never gets boring. That's precisely because he develops his material different each time. And i like seeing this in composers.(unlike the "copy"and "paste" method which is a Horner trademark) Don't get me wrong. I really like several Horner scores. It just becomes rather pointless for me to listen to the same stuff for different movies. It makes no sense in the first place. I am really looking forward to this new score by Williams despite what you people say. I loved his recent Star Wars work because i can see that Williams is finally finding his own musical voice(unlike the older Star Wars which i still love, despite the extensive Shostakovich-Wagner copying; as for that, I DON'T CARE!).


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


fontinau
<Send E-Mail>
(cache-1.sbo.ma.webcache.rcn.net)

  In Response to:
Kyri

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Tuesday, June 18, 2002 (5:52 p.m.) 

> What i like about Williams is that he takes some textural material from
> his other scores and developes them more extensively. This happens whether
> it is an action sequence or a main theme. The thing about Williams is that
> he manages not to become boring-unlike Horner who almost ALWAYS sounds the
> same. Take for example the genious composer Elliot Goldenthal: He uses the
> same atonal techniques but never gets boring. That's precisely because he
> develops his material different each time. And i like seeing this in
> composers.(unlike the "copy"and "paste" method which
> is a Horner trademark)

Good point. And yeah, Elliot Goldenthal rules the world.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


juju-bean
(lsanca1-ar23-4-63-042-210.lsanca1
.dsl-verizon.net)

  In Response to:
fontinau

  Responses to this Comment:
Kyri
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Wednesday, June 19, 2002 (8:02 p.m.) 

> Good point. And yeah, Elliot Goldenthal rules the world

Amen to that. Elliot Goldenthal is awesome. Although you probably have, but if you haven't, you should listen to some of his non-film music. It is awesome; of course, so is his film stuff. But I heavily recommend Fire/Water/Paper it is exceptionally good, IMO.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Kyri
<Send E-Mail>
(la-7-49.cytanet.com.cy)

  In Response to:
juju-bean
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Thursday, June 20, 2002 (2:05 a.m.) 

> Amen to that. Elliot Goldenthal is awesome. Although you probably have,
> but if you haven't, you should listen to some of his non-film music. It is
> awesome; of course, so is his film stuff. But I heavily recommend
> Fire/Water/Paper it is exceptionally good, IMO.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so glad that people actually like Elliot Goldenthal!
...Othello is pretty good too!
And YES, Fire Water Paper is AWESOME.



Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Harry Potter
(oh-lorain4a-59.wre.adelphia.net)

  In Response to:
fontinau

  Responses to this Comment:
fontinau
Alex
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (6:43 p.m.) 

Try listening to the Harry Potter aoundtrack sometime. The main theme is lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).

How can you say this? The two sound nothing alike! Listen to Hedwig's Theme and the Theme from Schindler's List, and then come back and talk.

Also, the Phantom Menace score took some passages from Jurassic Park, but that's a minor quibble.

Where specifically?

Williams is becoming like Horner in that he is walking down the same self-plagiarizing path that Horner has been on since the early 90s.

Where is your evidence? How can you make a base claim and not support it?


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


fontinau
<Send E-Mail>
(cache-1.sbo.ma.webcache.rcn.net)

  In Response to:
Harry Potter

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
MSM
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Tuesday, June 18, 2002 (5:50 p.m.) 

> Try listening to the Harry Potter soundtrack sometime. The main theme
> is lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).

> How can you say this? The two sound nothing alike! Listen to Hedwig's
> Theme and the Theme from Schindler's List, and then come back and talk.

I can say it because it is true. The opening violin piece in Schidler's List, and the theme that pervades the Harry Potter (including Hedwig's Theme) may use different rythm and orchestration, but even one hearing of the two themes will show that, note-for-note, they are practically identical. This wouldn't be too big an issue if it weren't for Williams beating us over the head with said thme every two minutes during the entire Harry Potter soundtrack.

True, Williams does still develope the theme differently in the two soundtracks, and for that I give him credit. (For more instances of self-plagarism in the Harry Potter score, visit the review on this site.)

> Also, the Phantom Menace score took some passages from Jurassic Park,
> but that's a minor quibble.

> Where specifically?

Beginning of track 10 (Passage Through the Planet Core). Oh, and since your asking for specifics, try listening to the themes from the Patriot and Amistad some time. They're copies of one another too.

> Williams is becoming like Horner in that he is walking down the same
> self-plagiarizing path that Horner has been on since the early 90s.

> Where is your evidence? How can you make a base claim and not support it?

I pretty much listed my evidence, didn;t I? I cite a number of recent scores where Williams has ripped off him own themes. This makes him like Horner in the respect that Horner is infamous for self-plagiarism. I don't think it's possible to give any evidence beyond the music (unless of course you took my comment literally, and are expecting film footage of John Williams' beard falling out, his hair regaining color, and his face twisting into James Horner's visage).

Also, I resent having my opinion being called a "base claim". I don't criticize you for worshipping John Williams, so you have no right to criticize me for voicing my opinions about his music.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


juju-bean
(lsanca1-ar23-4-63-042-210.lsanca1
.dsl-verizon.net)

  In Response to:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Tuesday, June 18, 2002 (10:06 p.m.) 

> I can say it because it is true. The opening violin piece in Schidler's
> List, and the theme that pervades the Harry Potter (including Hedwig's
> Theme) may use different rythm and orchestration, but even one hearing of
> the two themes will show that, note-for-note, they are practically
> identical. This wouldn't be too big an issue if it weren't for Williams
> beating us over the head with said thme every two minutes during the
> entire Harry Potter soundtrack.

Practically identical? You're wrong. From the second note they are different; Harry Potter descends a major 3rd while Schindlers a perfect fifth. If you are saying because of the directions in which the melodies are moving that they are "practically identical" then there are probably hundreds of other melodies that are also "practically identical." There is similarity because of the progression from a i chord to, what I believe to be, the VI chord, but big deal. Do you know how many songs have been written with a minor i chord going to the VI chord? From there Harry Potter continues to a diminished chord that sounds like the leading tone or something. The differences are very obvious there are tritone's and chromaticism in Harry Potter which are definately not present in the Schindler melody.

I think that people are getting way out of hand saying how many things are plagiarized or "rip-offs" in composers' film music. Most the time they are just similar... Now, I believe there are certain cases, where composers - *cough, cough* horner - completely lift themes that have already been written and insert them into their "original" score, this I don't like.

I think you, and others, should think more conservatively. From the standard people on these boardsclaim things are identical or plagiarized one would get the impression that total atonality and serialism would be the only option for these poor composers. Not that I don't like that style, but it would really be a shame to be missing out on such themes that are so pleasing to the ear. Don't you think?

So, in conclusion, Schindler's theme, regardless of what people say, is not "identical" to Harry Potter. They might have similarities in progression and melodic direction, but you're going out on a limb to say its self-plagiarism. You are restricting the composer too much, at least in my opinion.

PS: I have the Jurassic Park score and Episode I. I'll have to give it a listen, but I doubt the similarities are that consistant or important. Honestly, I have never seen Amistad, and I don't own the score, so I can't make a sound judgement on that and the Patriot. *shrugs*

DISCLAIMER: my opinions are just that: my opinions. And I have the right to be totally wrong.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


MSM
(ppp195-241-35-66.dial.12move.nl)

  In Response to:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Tuesday, August 6, 2002 (3:06 a.m.) 

> I can say it because it is true. The opening violin piece in Schidler's
> List, and the theme that pervades the Harry Potter (including Hedwig's
> Theme) may use different rythm and orchestration, but even one hearing of
> the two themes will show that, note-for-note, they are practically
> identical. This wouldn't be too big an issue if it weren't for Williams
> beating us over the head with said thme every two minutes during the
> entire Harry Potter soundtrack.

This subject has been discussed thoroughly on the HP site. In my opinion the HP theme crucially differs from the Schindler's List theme, at least technically seen: the rhythm is quite different (an other meter), the descending intervals are thirds in HP and fifths in SL, the tonality differs, the instrumentation differs greatly (a huge tutti in HP against a solo violin in SL) and after at most the first two measures the themes definitely diverge. Maybe you'll say those are tiny differences, but to me those differences mean a great difference in emotional content (HP more waltz-like as a mysterious dance, SL more real, stately and solemn). I just can't see why you say the two themes sound the same.

And I think it's true that AotC borrows some motifs/styles from HP, for example Voldemort's theme (track 3), The Moving Stairs-like dissonance in track 5 and some HP embellishment in track 10.

And yes, I also agree that the theme from the Patriot heard in the middle of the Main Theme is quite the same as in Amistad, but used in a different way (more militaristic) which in my view makes a huge difference. What's more, I think this resemblance shows how equivalent the subjects of the two films are: just two patriottic US history stories.


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Alex
<Send E-Mail>
(aristoteles.ti.telenor.net)

  In Response to:
Harry Potter

  Responses to this Comment:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Friday, June 21, 2002 (10:19 a.m.) 

> Try listening to the Harry Potter aoundtrack sometime. The main theme
> is lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).

Haha this has to be the most ignorant post I've ever read.
You stupid idiot, go buy yourself a new set of ears.

If you only knew how many people were laughing at your post.

With people like this it's easy to explain those "1 star"
votes.

Disasterous. Simply unheard of. Pretty funny though. I'll
give you that.

Alex

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


fontinau
<Send E-Mail>
(cache-1.sbo.ma.webcache.rcn.net)

  In Response to:
Alex
Stop wasting board space, Alex.   Friday, June 21, 2002 (5:22 p.m.) 

> Haha this has to be the most ignorant post I've ever read.

In that case, I suggest you try reading your own posts. Maybe then you'll catch all those spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes.

>
You stupid idiot, go buy yourself a new set of ears.

Don't have too. I'll just borrow yours. Now hold still... ::takes out a switch-blade::

> If you only knew how many people were laughing at your post.

As far as I can tell, several people are disagreeing with my post, and one heavily retarded orangutan is laughing at it.

> With people like this it's easy to explain those "1 star"
>
votes.

> Disasterous.

So a post on a film score site by a person you've never met qualifies as "disasterous"? Someone here must be leading a very uneventful life.

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


juju-bean
(lsanca1-ar23-4-63-042-210.lsanca1
.dsl-verizon.net)

  In Response to:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Monday, June 17, 2002 (11:48 p.m.) 

> Try listening to the Harry Potter aoundtrack sometime. The main theme is
> lifted directly from Schindler's List (of all things!).

Uhm... Well, you heard it wrong. Listen to it again.


Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Michael
<Send E-Mail>
(spider-wa061.proxy.aol.com)

  In Response to:
fontinau
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Wednesday, June 19, 2002 (5:13 p.m.) 

> I care. This makes it, what? John William's third self-ripoff in a row
> (following Harry Potter and AotC). I swear, the guy's turning into James
> Horner.
It is odd that you mention Clones, I think its the only Star Wars score that is listenable the entire way through.

MM

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display


Pawel Stroinski
<Send E-Mail>
(pc20.pi.tpsa.pl)
Profile Picture
  In Response to:
ethan[imf]
Re: MR sounds like a mixture of the latest JW scores...and nobody cares!   Wednesday, September 18, 2002 (9:15 a.m.) 

At last somebody noticed it!

Pawel

Post Full Response         Edit Post         Threaded display



Copyright © 1998-2019, Filmtracks Publications. All rights reserved.
The reviews and other textual content contained on the filmtracks.com site may not be published, broadcast,
rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of Christian Clemmensen at Filmtracks Publications. Scoreboard created 7/24/98 and last updated 4/25/15.