As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius' "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition," "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky, Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony, Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.

Gee. Hate ta say it, but if that's all he's stolen from in his decades of film scoring, he's done well. Besides, most of the pieces you mentioned are stolen in other instances by other composers, but few can hide those stealings the way that John Williams can.

Have fun.

> As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal
> far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection
> of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New
> World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius'
> "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition,"
> "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky,
> Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony,
> Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and
> Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more
> rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com
> or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.

I ran across this review the other day and thought it would be a good idea to type a follow-up. I wrote the original posting some time ago and now have a much broader understanding of music and the art of composition, so perhaps I can portray my opinions in a better way. (Maybe I can spell a few more words correctly, too)

I still stand by my criticism of Mr. Williams' propensity to "borrow" from other composers. As a current music composition major in college, I certainly understand the challenge of writing original music. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. What is easy, however, is borrowing other people's ideas and incorporating them into your own work. While I can certainly appreciate his music, I also have to recognize where it comes from. In fact, what I love most about Williams' music... isn't his music at all. It is the work of other composers such as Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, Persichetti, Holst et cetera... that I hear reproduced through Williams' pen. In an field defined by originality and creativity, Maestro Williams is neither. He is a good composer, but not a great composer. His music will not survive the test of time.

Now, the above comments refer only to his film scores. His lesser known classical works feature much more original ideas. They are much harder to listen to- in fact, I don't care for most of them- but at the same time, I recognize the dramatic increase in genuine musical quality from his film works.

What you mean John Williams won't stand the test of time? His music is still the very best film music around and his music is the work other's are judged by. His music is timeless and part of our culture. His music lives beyond the films they are written for and will live on for as long as there are people to listen to it.

He is the greatest film composer of all time!

> I ran across this review the other day and thought it would be a good
> idea to type a follow-up. I wrote the original posting some time ago and
> now have a much broader understanding of music and the art of composition,
> so perhaps I can portray my opinions in a better way. (Maybe I can spell a
> few more words correctly, too)

> I still stand by my criticism of Mr. Williams' propensity to
> "borrow" from other composers. As a current music composition
> major in college, I certainly understand the challenge of writing original
> music. It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. What is easy,
> however, is borrowing other people's ideas and incorporating them into
> your own work. While I can certainly appreciate his music, I also have to
> recognize where it comes from. In fact, what I love most about Williams'
> music... isn't his music at all. It is the work of other composers such as
> Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, Persichetti, Holst et cetera... that I hear
> reproduced through Williams' pen. In an field defined by originality and
> creativity, Maestro Williams is neither. He is a good composer, but not a
> great composer. His music will not survive the test of time.

> Now, the above comments refer only to his film scores. His lesser known
> classical works feature much more original ideas. They are much harder to
> listen to- in fact, I don't care for most of them- but at the same time, I
> recognize the dramatic increase in genuine musical quality from his film
> works.

John Williams' film scores will stand the test of time because it is some of the very best music ever written. Too bad if he didn't actually write it.

Hopefully time will expose him if he really is a fraud.

> What you mean John Williams won't stand the test of time? His music is
> still the very best film music around and his music is the work other's
> are judged by. His music is timeless and part of our culture. His music
> lives beyond the films they are written for and will live on for as long
> as there are people to listen to it.

> He is the greatest film composer of all time!

Well I don't think he stole music, been greatly influenced by those composers would be the right words. Who could blame him? Composers of all time were influenced by previous composers, if not writing variations upon other's. Note the Beethoven and Mozart's classical style in Chopin romantics works. Like the other guy saying that the Qui-Gonn's funeral scene and "Duel of the Fates" were copied on Orff's Carmina Burana: of course, a choir on a funeral scene would have this tone, like Mozart's "Lacrymosa". And for "O Fortuna", a lot of people thought that it was used integrally in "Duel of the Fates", a mistake for people's lack of musical earing. Of course, I'm 17 and I don't have the knowledge of a major in music composition student, but I think that those "stealings" are simple influences.

> As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal
> far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection
> of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New
> World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius'
> "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition,"
> "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky,
> Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony,
> Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and
> Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more
> rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com
> or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.

> Well I don't think he stole music, been greatly influenced by those
> composers would be the right words. Who could blame him? Composers of all
> time were influenced by previous composers, if not writing variations upon
> other's. Note the Beethoven and Mozart's classical style in Chopin
> romantics works. Like the other guy saying that the Qui-Gonn's funeral
> scene and "Duel of the Fates" were copied on Orff's Carmina
> Burana: of course, a choir on a funeral scene would have this tone, like
> Mozart's "Lacrymosa". And for "O Fortuna", a lot of
> people thought that it was used integrally in "Duel of the
> Fates", a mistake for people's lack of musical earing. Of course, I'm
> 17 and I don't have the knowledge of a major in music composition student,
> but I think that those "stealings" are simple influences.
I agree. There is distinct difference between copying something note for note and just sounding similar to it. For example: Bill Conti's theme for The Right Stuff is exactly the same as a theme from Tchiakovsky's violin concerto, but the Force theme from Star Wars merely has a similar feeling to the main motif from the fourth movement of Dvorak's ninth symphony.
And let me lay down a little revelation for you all: this is movie music. It was not written to be original, independent, or even to be enjoyable to listen to for that matter. It was written to fit a film. If Host's The Planets fits a movie perfectly, then by golly (sp), put it in there. We are simply lucky that composers such as John Williams and Howard Shoare and James Horner etc. are gifted enough to create some astounding, original music.

I just listed to the John Williams "Munich" soundtrack. I know I've heard the theme from track "Bonding" before in another classical work. If anyone knows where he lifted the music from, I would like to know. Thanks.

- Casey

> As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal
> far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection
> of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New
> World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius'
> "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition,"
> "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky,
> Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony,
> Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and
> Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more
> rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com
> or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.

> I just listed to the John Williams "Munich" soundtrack. I know
> I've heard the theme from track "Bonding" before in another
> classical work. If anyone knows where he lifted the music from, I would
> like to know. Thanks.

> - Casey

This song doesn't sound like any classical piece I've heard before, however I do notice a very strong resemblence to William's "Schindler's List Theme(with violin solo by Itzhak Perlman)." Since the solo instrument is a classical guitar, it might be similar to some other classical guitar pieces. Try Segovia's trascriptions of Paganini, or his transcriptions of Bach.

-Nate

> As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal
> far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection
> of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New
> World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius'
> "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition,"
> "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky,
> Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony,
> Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and
> Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more
> rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com
> or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.
WHEN DID JOHN WILLIAMS STEAL "DEATH AND TRANSFIGURATION", EXACTLY?

Oh, could I agree more! As much as I always thought of him as probably one of the de best orchestrators and "soundtrack engineers" of all times, his many stealings (and auto-stealings) turn him into a quite questionable "artist". I think his repeated and uncredited plunder of Prokofiev orchestral works (such as "Romeo and Juliet" but especially of "The Love for Three Oranges", from which the "artist" took basically all of the incidental music for his most famous early soundtracks such as "Star Wars" or "Indiana Jones") is quite self-explaining.

I'm definitely more a follower of slightly more original composers such as Morricone, Goldsmith or Thomas Newman. At least, when they do, they give credit for what's borrowed.

Congrats in this long-lasting piece of controversy.

> As much as I like Mr. Williams' music (and I have 47 of his CDs), he steal
> far too much from other composers. I am trying to assimilate a collection
> of all the things he has stolen from. So far I have Dvorak's "New
> World" Symphony, Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet," Sibelius'
> "Finaldnia," Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition,"
> "The Rite of Spring" and "The Firebird" by Stravinsky,
> Korngold's theme to "King's Row," Persichetti's 6th symphony,
> Neverending Story, "Death and Transfiguration" by Strauss, and
> Holst's "The Planets." Does anybody out there know of any more
> rip-offs? If you have some more, please email me at Pudgevader@aol.com
> or chat via AIM, my screen name is Composer111285.