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Re: No, it won´t.
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• Posted by: TUBA   <Send E-Mail>
• Date: Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 10:24 a.m.
• IP Address: 174-102.lib.umich.edu
• In Response to: Re: No, it won´t. (G.K.)

> As it was pointed out ad nauseam now, entertainment has as much to do with
> quality as Al Bundy has to do with feminism.

Perhaps entertaining isn't necessarily the right word (Spidey 3 and Transformers were entertaining movies, though I wish I could say the same for the latter's BORING score, but certainly not quality). Enjoyability is probably a better word, at least for me.

> Creativity, complexity, variability, these three things are absent from
> AWE. But that doesn't mean you can't find it entertaining.

Exactly. Even if Zimmer doesn't achieve perfection on those three levels, I can still enjoy his music. I just spent the last two weeks plowing through my entire collection and even though zimmer hasn't created any classics, he's still made quite a few scores that may not be vastly complex but are still driving, enjoyable, and engaging for the most part.

> ANd I have a serious problem with people who proclaim Zimmer as the
> creative genius based on them loving his music.

I think people do that because a) they haven't listened to that much zimmer (I felt the same way when the only scores I had were fellowship and gladiator) and b) they haven't listened to that much film music. You can proclaim anything to be genius if you haven't heard anything else. I by no means think Zimmer is a creative genius because he has yet to show us he can be diverse and consistantly original. But I still like his scores.

> Sheet music for PotC is publically available, and it takes little more
> than a glance to see that it ranks way, way, way below other scores.
> What I'm saying is: orchestration and composition are very complex webs.
> And Hans Zimmer's music is little more than a basic framework.

I think the problem with this is that Hans uses ghostwriters and thinks he doesn't need orchestrators. I have problems with the end credits for Pirates 2 because it sounds like the whole orchestra is playing unison. But I don't think how music is written on sheets should be my criteria for how enjoyable music is.

> First of all, it's not about whether a harp is used or not, it's what and
> how it plays. I don't look at this from a listener's point of view, but a
> composer's.

I think that's where we differ on how we view scores. I listen to all kinds of music (well, almost all, can't stand screaming rock music and I'm not THAT into rap, but otherwise...) for enjoyability, and probably the reason soundtracks hold my interest is the way the orchestra can carry you through the film's journey, taking you (hopefully) on a complex and engaging thematic journey. Obviously I trend towards scores that are more complex and diverse, but I don't need sheet music to define how much I like certain music.

> How can any composer that considers himself a little more professional be
> content with writing basically the same themes and chord progressions,
> with the same orchestrations over and over for almost 10 years? I couldn't
> even look into the face of my colleagues anymore.

Similar chord progressions are nothing new to music. What do you think James Horner and Thomas Newman have been doing during that time span? But they can still make good music out of it...I just recently listened to The Missing for the first time in a while and found that, despite its inherent similarities to all other things Horner, it was still very good music. In regard to orchestration, you're right...Zimmer has yet to REALLY go out of his comfort zone, but he still makes good music. If his music was atrocious, then yes, he should be ashamed.

> But Zimmer's success amongst the average public says more about them than
> it says about him.

Yeah, all those rabid zimmer fans who post here are a nuisance. I still look back at that high school drum major girl.

> Secondly, having some knowledge about orchestration and composition may be
> a disadvantage to you because then the brutal lack of skills of some
> composers comes into broad daylight, but it helps to differentiate, and
> make the good scores even more enjoyable.

No denying that.

> I can dig a little deeper, and understand the composer's ideas about
> unique orchestrations for certain themes (characters, places). I find that
> extremely desirable.

Nor that

> And by the way, you don't need to scrutinise Zimmer's music to get annoyed
> by the 2476 th french horn theme.

True, but I think that's more a characteristic of Media Ventures/Remote Control than Zimmer. Zimmer's themes, for me at least, are most engaging, entertaining, and enjoyable, regardless of intstrumentation (most of the time, anyways). But when composers like Steve Jablonsky try that out, the music is boring because it doesn't have any identity (again with me ranting about Transformers...seriously, the music was the worst thing about that movie)

> It's weird that having more musical knowledge than others makes one a
> snob, biased, or whatever else minority one gets pushed in.
> If one is extremely biased because one doesn't accept the simplistic,
> loud, monorhythmic and thematically pale stuff that passes as complex
> music to the innocent amongst us, then I'll gladly wear that label.

I'm not saying having more musical knowledge makes you a snob. But that doesn't mean you have to be arrogant about it. Coming up and saying, "Hey, I've seen the sheet music, i'm the only person qualified to judge this, the rest of you are just average and childish" is completely different from offering your take on orchestration. Zimmer's music can still be engaging at times. It's not your knowledge I'm criticizing...it's the way you apply it. You're saying you can never appreciate pirates 3 because you feel like punishing zimmer...that's not a way to look at music. I though pirates 3 was going to be more of the same like pirates 2 in terms of inappropriate guitars showing up in half the tracks...but I was wrong and I enjoy it.

> If I was like that, I would have never listened to Pirates 3 in the first
> place, since after Pirates 2 it was pretty clear that Zimmer had failed
> (again).

It's not about avoidance. It's about refusing to appreciate.

> Don't be ridiculous. Not all Elfman scores sound like M:I. Not only does
> each Elfman score have an individual charme, he's also capable of writing
> good and inventive music. And there's a general tone of inventiveness
> throughout his work.

Amen to that...his score for Edward Scissorhands MADE that movie.

> Zimmer's scores on the other hand sound very much the same and have a
> general tone of lazyness throughout, that's why a generalisation to some
> degree is actually possible.

Yes, Zimmer's lazy, but even when he's on autopilot he can still give us good music.




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