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Comments about the soundtrack for Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (John Williams)
regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme

J.
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The Dark Agent
Waters
Mister Frodo
regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Tuesday, May 3, 2005 (7:41 a.m.) 

I've read quite a few reviews of the Revenge of the Sith score now and many people seem to be disappointed at Williams' non-inclusion of Duel of the Fates or Anakin's Theme on the soundtrack release. A poster at AICN made a very good point about regarding Duel of the Fates. He referred to this theme as representing the different paths Anakin could have chosen: the Light or the Dark.

In Attack of the Clones many were happy, yet baffled for its inclusion when Anakin was on his way to search for his mother. What's interesting is his reaction to his mother's death is when he chose his path. He acted out in anger and emotion and slaughtered the tuskens. Therefore, the Duel theme makes sense (on a personal level) and being that he's already chosen his fate (perhaps without knowing), Duel of the Fates has no place in Episode III (concerning Anakin at least).

Of course, it was used during the duel of Maul, Obi-Wan, and Qui Gon. So how do I explain THAT? Well, in a much broader sense, the theme represents the conflict of the Light and the Dark... two good jedi duelling one evil sith. I'm sure Williams could have found some excuse to include it, but this final episode involves a much more personal conflict than the previous two films, so I'm glad Duel of the Fates (though a great theme) wasn't included on the soundtrack release and I'm hoping it's not in the film.

As far as Anakin's theme... I've always felt this particular them represented his innocence and his goodness. It also foreshadows his doomed fate, but by Episode III, he's not innocent and his goodness is leaving him fast. He's basically met that fate. Considering the soundtrack and the novel, I don't see a place for Anakin's theme.

A few others:

Luke and Leia's theme would have been nice, but I don't think it takes away from anything with it not being there. They aren't developed characters yet and taking the overall story in a linear approach, their importance isn't quite known in Episode III (we all know, of course... but if these films were made in order, we wouldn't really know).

The Death Star motif... I'm actually not familiar with it (gasp), but again, it's not developed yet, so it's absence doesn't hinder anything for me.

Yoda's theme is tricky. I don't want to hear it in it's sweet, playful form. It wouldn't fit that way. An exciting variation would be nice, though (a la the Dooku vs. Yoda scene in Attack of the Clones). We'll see.

The Emperor's theme is not so tricky. It's absence on the soundtrack release scares me. More than any of the above mentioned themes, this one is actually NEEDED in this film. I was disappointed that it wasn't included on the soundtrack, but I'll be EXTREMELY disappointed if it doesn't play a decent role in the film.

A New Hope and End Credits is a brilliant track. I don't understand the disappointment with this one. It gives us Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and the force theme within the first minute. THERE is your themes for Luke and Leia... we don't need the theme from Jedi. I like the end credits part (the star wars/luke theme)... it sounds more subdued, which is appropriate for this episode.

I've listend the Revenge of the Sith the whole way through once so far. I, for one, am highly impressed. This holds more emotional weight than ANY of the previous scores. It's definately not as thematic, but neither was Attack of the Clones. I liked every track this go round and think it's the second best of all the scores. Empire will always be the best (one of the best if not THE best score ever written for any movie, IMHO). I'll probably update when I've listened to it a few more times.

One more theme missing from the release... the music that played during the duel of Vader and Luke. That is my favortie cue from Jedi (the beautiful choral piece). I was expecting it for some reason, but now I'm kind of hoping it doesn't appear in this film. Between that theme and the Battle of the Heroes theme... well, the Jedi one is more important and more beautiful. It represented a family duel between Vader and Luke, where as Heroes is between old friends Obi-Wan and Anakin. So I'm glad Williams composed a different piece for this new duel. I feel the duels should not be really connected and by having the different themes, I feel this was accomplished.

Well, that's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth. I'd love to here others' thoughts on this. Later.

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The Dark Agent
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J.

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J.
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Tuesday, May 3, 2005 (1:27 p.m.) 

> As far as Anakin's theme... I've always felt this particular them
> represented his innocence and his goodness. It also foreshadows his doomed
> fate, but by Episode III, he's not innocent and his goodness is leaving
> him fast. He's basically met that fate. Considering the soundtrack and the
> novel, I don't see a place for Anakin's theme.

Well, technically Anakin's Theme is a innocent permutation of The Imperial March (aka Darth Vader's Theme), so it can be argued that as you progress through the movies, Anakin's Theme simply morphed into the Imperial March. Check the last track on AOTC.

> A few others:
> Luke and Leia's theme would have been nice, but I don't think it takes
> away from anything with it not being there.
And considering that it doesn't show up until ROTJ, which is two movie later in the series. Williams seemed to wanted to connect ROTS more with the next episode, "A New Hope," which is obvious, especially in the end credits. It makes much more sense to use the two original themes rather than the sone from Jedi.

> The Death Star motif... I'm actually not familiar with it (gasp), but
> again, it's not developed yet, so it's absence doesn't hinder anything for
> me.
Techincally the Death Star/Imperial theme, such as it was in "A New Hope" was simply replaced with the superior Imperial March in subsequent films. The theme all but vanished after "Empire." Many have felt that Williams should have took the old theme retained in ANH and replaced it with Imperial March in the Special Editions so to have it fully in the chronology. Still, I think he and Lucas left it as it stands in ANH sans Imperial March, given that ANH was the only Star Wars score that one an academy award, and I agree with them. If it's not broke don't fix it (I wish Lucas would have stayed to that policy on some of his "enhanced" scenes on the orginal trilogy, but we're talking scores here). Anway, there's nothing wrong with the ANH score. It's still a masterpiece of film scoring and not having Imperial March in it is NOT a flaw despite what some fanboys say. It simply doesn't have the theme because it wasn't composed yet. Still, the so-called Death Star theme was extremely serviceable, and quite simular in the feeling of the Imperial March. It just didn't have as much "theme" to it. So when ROTJ's Death Star came around, the theme was simply outmoded to the more popular Imperial March.

> The Emperor's theme is not so tricky. It's absence on the soundtrack
> release scares me. More than any of the above mentioned themes, this one
> is actually NEEDED in this film. I was disappointed that it wasn't
> included on the soundtrack, but I'll be EXTREMELY disappointed if it
> doesn't play a decent role in the film.

Oh but it is. While it may no be as blatant in its use on "The Phantom Menace" the Emperor's theme is there is a few, abeit subtle, places. Look for the theme on the "Palpatine's Teachings" (very briefly around the 2:50 minute mark) and "Enter Lord Vader" (around 3:50)

> A New Hope and End Credits is a brilliant track. I don't understand the
> disappointment with this one.
Yeah, I agree with you. Some fans complain that Williams doesn't include more of the old themes (in their full form) into the prequel scores. You should have seen what happened when people heard that one bold statement of the Imperial March in AOTC score, you would have thought it was the Second Coming. Now when Williams does the same thing in these ending credits he's berated. Sure it's not the most original "end credits" he's done, but that doesn't make them bad. Besides, it makes sense to use them here to connect to next movie, "A New Hope" were all those themes (except "Battle of the Heroes of course) are found in these forms.

> One more theme missing from the release... the music that played during
> the duel of Vader and Luke. That is my favortie cue from Jedi (the
> beautiful choral piece).
It's there too. It's played opposite the "Across the Stars" theme in the beautiful "Anakin's Dream" that theme played mornfully by the violin (it almost sounds like "The Village").

I hope that helps. It takes a few listens to find these subtleties, but that's the fun about these prequel scores. It's almost like one of those "circle the word" wordsearch puzzles looking for some of these old themes. Have fun.

-The Dark Agent

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J.
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The Dark Agent

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The Dark Agent
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Wednesday, May 4, 2005 (10:01 a.m.) 

> Well, technically Anakin's Theme is a innocent permutation of The Imperial
> March (aka Darth Vader's Theme), so it can be argued that as you progress
> through the movies, Anakin's Theme simply morphed into the Imperial March.
> Check the last track on AOTC.

Very true. I was hoping Williams would morph the theme into the Imperial March and I guess in a way he did. I hear the March in the Love Theme from Attack of the Clones (especially during the menacing middle section). I guess I was disappointed because the Love Theme wasn't entirely devoted to Anakin like the other two are (Imperial March could be debated), yet the love he had for Padme is what supposedly leads him to the dark side. So all in all, it does make sense.

The last track on AOTC is brilliant. I couldn't believe Lucas didn't use it in the film (referring to that last bit of Anakin's Them segueing into the Imperial March).

And considering that it doesn't show up
> until ROTJ, which is two movie later in the series. Williams seemed to
> wanted to connect ROTS more with the next episode, "A New Hope,"
> which is obvious, especially in the end credits. It makes much more sense
> to use the two original themes rather than the sone from Jedi.

Exactly.

>
Techincally the Death Star/Imperial theme, such as it was in "A
> New Hope" was simply replaced with the superior Imperial March in
> subsequent films. The theme all but vanished after "Empire."

OH! THAT theme.

> Many have felt that Williams should have took the old theme retained in
> ANH and replaced it with Imperial March in the Special Editions so to have
> it fully in the chronology. Still, I think he and Lucas left it as it
> stands in ANH sans Imperial March, given that ANH was the only Star Wars
> score that one an academy award, and I agree with them. If it's not broke
> don't fix it (I wish Lucas would have stayed to that policy on some of his
> "enhanced" scenes on the orginal trilogy, but we're talking
> scores here).

Yes, that theme worked just fine in ANH... It would have been more consistent to have rescored it with the Imperial March, but its never taken anything away from the score or the film for me. And you're right... if it ain't broke, why fix it (in total aggreeance about the new scenes in the OT)? It coulda have been a cool nostalgic moment to have that theme in ROTS, but I won't miss it if it isn't. The Imperial March will probably play during that scene and I like that theme better anyway.

> Oh but it is. While it may no be as blatant in its use on "The
> Phantom Menace" the Emperor's theme is there is a few, abeit subtle,
> places. Look for the theme on the "Palpatine's Teachings" (very
> briefly around the 2:50 minute mark) and "Enter Lord Vader"
> (around 3:50)

I heard it on my second listen. I LOVE this score. It may not be as action-packed exciting, but its atmosphere and emotion is spot on perfect. But yeah, the Emperor's Theme is present (VERY subtle stuff). I hope it gets a full-blown rendition in the film though (a la Phantom Menace).

It's there too. It's played opposite
> the "Across the Stars" theme in the beautiful "Anakin's
> Dream" that theme played mornfully by the violin (it almost sounds
> like "The Village").

Oh WOW! That IS it. I didn't catch that the first few times. It's such a beautiful piece. I'm curious as to how this scene will play out (it was a duel piece in ROTJ... wonder what it will be here). It reminds me of The Village too (definately not a bad thing). Thanks for pointing it out to me. :-)

> I hope that helps. It takes a few listens to find these subtleties, but
> that's the fun about these prequel scores. It's almost like one of those
> "circle the word" wordsearch puzzles looking for some of these
> old themes. Have fun.

> -The Dark Agent

Thanks for the response! I was wondering... what's you opinion of Duel of the Fates missing from the soundtrack and its place in the film (if there is one)?


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The Dark Agent
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Arion Quill
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Sunday, May 8, 2005 (11:44 p.m.) 

> Thanks for the response! I was wondering... what's you opinion of Duel of
> the Fates missing from the soundtrack and its place in the film (if there
> is one)?

No problem and ah yes, I love the "Duel of the Fates" theme, and I was extactic when it briefly appeared in AOTC. I was hoping (and still am) that it would appear somewhere in this next film. Still, I think it is odd that it's not anywhere on the CD, given that it had become such a highly popular theme. In TPM it was used in the Jedi vs Maul battle and in ATOC it was used to show Anakin's conflicting emotions during his search for his mother. Now it's obvious that it's probably not going to be used in the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel because obviously it has it's own theme. Now there might be a place for it around the Yoda vs Palpatine or Palpatine vs Mace or Mace vs Anakin, Anakin vs Dooku (man, by just looking at previews there's a lot of one-on-one duels going on).

Anyway, I feel there might be a small statement of the first bars (like in TPM when Darth Maul make his appearance right before the main duel), right when Anakin turns totally to the Dark Side and takes his place next to Palpatine....but then again, it's all very sketchy on where to place a theme in a film that isn't out yet.

So, in summary, I hope that "Duel of the Fates" makes it's way into the movie (though it sadly didn't on soundtrack) but if it doesn't I won't be too broken up because from the music that's just presented here on CD, the score+film is gonna rock.

-The Dark Agent

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Arion Quill
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Ryan
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Tuesday, May 24, 2005 (4:05 p.m.) 

> No problem and ah yes, I love the "Duel of the Fates" theme, and
> I was extactic when it briefly appeared in AOTC. I was hoping (and still
> am) that it would appear somewhere in this next film. Still, I think it is
> odd that it's not anywhere on the CD, given that it had become such a
> highly popular theme. In TPM it was used in the Jedi vs Maul battle and in
> ATOC it was used to show Anakin's conflicting emotions during his search
> for his mother. Now it's obvious that it's probably not going to be used
> in the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel because obviously it has it's own theme. Now
> there might be a place for it around the Yoda vs Palpatine or Palpatine vs
> Mace or Mace vs Anakin, Anakin vs Dooku (man, by just looking at previews
> there's a lot of one-on-one duels going on).

> Anyway, I feel there might be a small statement of the first bars (like in
> TPM when Darth Maul make his appearance right before the main duel), right
> when Anakin turns totally to the Dark Side and takes his place next to
> Palpatine....but then again, it's all very sketchy on where to place a
> theme in a film that isn't out yet.

> So, in summary, I hope that "Duel of the Fates" makes it's way
> into the movie (though it sadly didn't on soundtrack) but if it doesn't I
> won't be too broken up because from the music that's just presented here
> on CD, the score+film is gonna rock.

> -The Dark Agent

"Duel of the Fates" is in the film. The battle between Obi Wan and Anakin is intercut with a battle between Yoda and the Emperor. DOTF starts in the middle of the Anakin/Obi Wan fight but is played mostly during the Yoda/Emperor fight, but I'm not sure if this is a new rendition or simply a remix from Phantom Menace. If anyone has this information I'd like to know


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Ryan
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Arion Quill
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Friday, May 27, 2005 (2:57 p.m.) 

> "Duel of the Fates" is in the film. The battle between Obi Wan
> and Anakin is intercut with a battle between Yoda and the Emperor. DOTF
> starts in the middle of the Anakin/Obi Wan fight but is played mostly
> during the Yoda/Emperor fight, but I'm not sure if this is a new rendition
> or simply a remix from Phantom Menace. If anyone has this information I'd
> like to know

The ostinato (g a g-f#-e) also appears to counterponit the Force theme at several ponits as well indicating that the fate of the Force itself is in jeopardy. I mentioned this in a later thread but people just didn't understand. *sigh*

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Waters
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J.

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J.
Mark
blah
RabbitFly
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Wednesday, May 4, 2005 (4:18 p.m.) 

> I've read quite a few reviews of the Revenge of the Sith score now and
> many people seem to be disappointed at Williams' non-inclusion of Duel of
> the Fates or Anakin's Theme on the soundtrack release. A poster at AICN
> made a very good point about regarding Duel of the Fates. He referred to
> this theme as representing the different paths Anakin could have chosen:
> the Light or the Dark.

> In Attack of the Clones many were happy, yet baffled for its inclusion
> when Anakin was on his way to search for his mother. What's interesting is
> his reaction to his mother's death is when he chose his path. He acted out
> in anger and emotion and slaughtered the tuskens. Therefore, the Duel
> theme makes sense (on a personal level) and being that he's already chosen
> his fate (perhaps without knowing), Duel of the Fates has no place in
> Episode III (concerning Anakin at least).

> Of course, it was used during the duel of Maul, Obi-Wan, and Qui Gon. So
> how do I explain THAT? Well, in a much broader sense, the theme represents
> the conflict of the Light and the Dark... two good jedi duelling one evil
> sith. I'm sure Williams could have found some excuse to include it, but
> this final episode involves a much more personal conflict than the
> previous two films, so I'm glad Duel of the Fates (though a great theme)
> wasn't included on the soundtrack release and I'm hoping it's not in the
> film.

I must say I strongly disagree with your arguement here. To say that "Duel of Fates" has no place in this movie because Anakin has already chosen his fate is utterly ridiculous. Yes, he did slaughter the Tuskens, but that does not mean his fate was sealed at that moment (Even though we all know where it was heading, and this was certainly a turning point, that scene was not the final sealing of his fate. You might as well just claim that his destiny was chosen from birth, and "Duel of Fates" should have never been created in the first place). To say there was no chance of redemption after that moment is to deny the intention of the films as a whole. After all, in the end Anakin is ultimately turned back to the light side of the force in Episode VI, so it is not as if their was any point in his life where he was pure evil and could never be a good guy again.

Finally, if you want to get real technical, and break it down semantically (as you already attempted). Anytime, anyone fights to the death or at all, it is a "Duel of Fates". Two people are "dueling", and both of their "fates" will be changed by the outcome. Your arguement simply is not a valid reason for throwing out "Duel of Fates". I personally would love to see a rendition of it in Episode III, mainly because I remember how pumped I started to get when I heard it in Episode II, and I also remember how disappointed I was when they did not continue it. If only they had played it while he cut down the Tuskens. Of course, we neither saw him cut them down, nor heard "Duel of Fates". It would have been nice to see the rage. Through Episode II, it just looks like Anakin is turning into Vader because he is a whiney brat, not because he is ridiculously powerful and sees the dark side as a better outlet for that power.



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J.
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Waters
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Thursday, May 5, 2005 (10:47 a.m.) 

> I must say I strongly disagree with your arguement here. To say that
> "Duel of Fates" has no place in this movie because Anakin has
> already chosen his fate is utterly ridiculous.

Surely not UTTERLY ridiculous.

> Yes, he did slaughter the
> Tuskens, but that does not mean his fate was sealed at that moment (Even
> though we all know where it was heading, and this was certainly a turning
> point, that scene was not the final sealing of his fate.

You're absolutely right... that wasn't necessarily the moment his fate was sealed. I'm sure that moment played differently for different people. To myself, however, that's when he chose his path. I don't think he accepted that... but somewhere deep down he knew that moment changed him. And of course, this is getting into the psychology of the characters which, let's face it, isn't the purpose of Star Wars. I simply like being drawn to my characters. Unfortunately, that's hard to accomplish with these new films (which is a problem with the scripts, not the music).

> You might as well
> just claim that his destiny was chosen from birth, and "Duel of
> Fates" should have never been created in the first place).

Well, his destiny was chosen from birth, actually. I'm hoping that will get addressed in the movie (it does in the book).

> To say
> there was no chance of redemption after that moment is to deny the
> intention of the films as a whole. After all, in the end Anakin is
> ultimately turned back to the light side of the force in Episode VI, so it
> is not as if their was any point in his life where he was pure evil and
> could never be a good guy again.

You're absolutely right, but I was never saying he had no chance of turning from evil. The way that Duel of the Fates was used in AOTC, however, indicates that that's when Anakin was on the brink of choosing his destiny. It was already decided, but he hadn't chosen yet.

> Finally, if you want to get real technical, and break it down semantically
> (as you already attempted).

> Anytime, anyone fights to the death or at all,
> it is a "Duel of Fates". Two people are "dueling", and
> both of their "fates" will be changed by the outcome.

Very true.

> Your
> arguement simply is not a valid reason for throwing out "Duel of
> Fates".

When viewing the stance of Duel of the Fates in relation to how it was used in Episode II, my argument is completely valid. When viewing its stance in relation to your above definition of a "Duel of the Fates," my argument is not valid.

> I personally would love to see a rendition of it in Episode
> III, mainly because I remember how pumped I started to get when I heard it
> in Episode II, and I also remember how disappointed I was when they did
> not continue it.

The theme became more personal for me in Episode II. I love how William's used it for Anakin. Therefore, I personally don't want it in ROTS. However, if the theme was used differently in Episode II (as in the jedi against Dooku), I would have LOVED to see it in Episode III.

> If only they had played it while he cut down the Tuskens.
> Of course, we neither saw him cut them down, nor heard "Duel of
> Fates". It would have been nice to see the rage.

That would have been pretty awesome. Didn't the Imperial March play right after, though? When Yoda sensed something was wrong and we hear Qui-Gon say "Anakin, no" or something like that? I don't recall at the moment. If, so... that was pretty cool.

> Through Episode II,
> it just looks like Anakin is turning into Vader because he is a whiney
> brat, not because he is ridiculously powerful and sees the dark side as a
> better outlet for that power.

Tis true... to a certain extent at least. Anakin did seem VERY whiney (Episode II is my least favorite film in the entire series).

POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW! BEWARE! POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW! BEWARE!

LEAVE NOW OR SCROLL DOWN TO KEEP READING

DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU

What's interesting is the book gives more physical reasons for Anakin's turning. Yes, it's because he feels his abilities are being limited by the jedi. He also has a vision (a dream) of Padme dying. Because of him loosing his mother, he refuses to loose anyone again. He feels he is powerful enough to even stop death. Well, he doesn't sleep and eat because he's so worried about losing the one he loves. He's too busy trying to learn anything and everything from anyone who will listen (the Emperor) in order to avert Padme's fate. So the book adds sleep deprivation and malnutrition to the reasons of Amakin's turning to the dark side. Depending on the person, this can come across as STUPID or GENIUS. I, for one, love this little addition. The reviews I've read for the film so far have claimed Anakin's reasoning for turning to the Dark side as unbelievable. I'm guessing Lucas simply sticks with the dream business. Oh, well.

Thanks for the read and I hope to hear more on this from anyone and everyone.

J.

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Waters
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J.

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Serge Desir
J.
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Thursday, May 5, 2005 (9:31 p.m.) 

> You're absolutely right, but I was never saying he had no chance of
> turning from evil. The way that Duel of the Fates was used in AOTC,
> however, indicates that that's when Anakin was on the brink of choosing
> his destiny. It was already decided, but he hadn't chosen yet.

I am not really sure what to make of this. It seems that you liked the use of "Duel of Fates" in regard to Anakin, yet you state that his fate has already been decided. Well, then it really isn't much of a "Duel of Fates", since there is no other option. By claiming that Anakin has already made his decision at this point (Tusken slaughter) is to say that he has no more internal struggles left, and I think you will agree that that is not the case. The bottom line is, there is no reason to get so attached to the title of this piece.
If you take it completely literally, in a world where one's destiny is already decided, the title "Duel of Fates" has no place whatsoever.

> When viewing the stance of Duel of the Fates in relation to how it was
> used in Episode II, my argument is completely valid. When viewing its
> stance in relation to your above definition of a "Duel of the
> Fates," my argument is not valid.

That would be perfectly true, if it were not for its original use in Episode I. In order for your argument to be valid you must ignore its original use.

> The theme became more personal for me in Episode II. I love how William's
> used it for Anakin. Therefore, I personally don't want it in ROTS.
> However, if the theme was used differently in Episode II (as in the jedi
> against Dooku), I would have LOVED to see it in Episode III.

Your reasoning here is either odd or simply flawed. Either you do not want to see the theme used in a versatile manner, and you like the new use William's found for it in Episode II. (though I feel "new use" is much too strong, since we really only got to hear the first thirty seconds of the cue.) Or you are saying that if it had been used in both the (Anakin) speeder scene and the Dooku fight, it would somehow be ok to have it in the third movie. First, I was unaware that score music had to follow such strict rules. Second, assuming there should be such rules, even though it was not in the Dooku fight scene, it was already used in a similar fight scene in Episode I.

"Duel of Fates" could easily find a place in Episode III in almost any Jedi vs. Sith scene, simply because that is how it was originally used (and ignoring the courtcase-esque analysis it just builds so well into an epic lightsaber duel, which to me is what it's all about). Now if one wants to say that it had an added use in its very brief appearance in Episode II as a representation of Anakin's internal struggle, that may also be true. I, however, do not see that as "The" turning point for Anakin, and everything he has done and will do since that point is under the complete lure of the dark side. Even if that were the case, it's original use still exists, as you have more or less agreed, and that does not disappear because they did not use it for the Dooku fight.

To be honest, I don't want to hear "Duel of Fates" for every lightsaber fight scene in the third movie, though I would like to hear some sort of reprise at some point, mostly because I think its uses have not been exhausted. At the same time, its lack of repeated use paved the way for "Battle of Heroes" which is powerful in its own right.



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Serge Desir
(132.170.6.51)

  In Response to:
Waters

  Responses to this Comment:
J.
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Friday, May 6, 2005 (11:24 a.m.) 

First, I will say that this is one of the few really good threads I've seen here from fans. Bravo, gentlemen.

Now, as far as Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme are concerned...

I always viewed the use of DotF in TPM was to reflect the overarching conflict between Jedi and Sith being played on the larger scale of Lucas' cosmos; on a smaller scale, it would come to represent what Anakin Skywalker would be faced with. It is irrelevant whether or not Anakin's fate was predestined or not because he is ignorant of this fate. He still had a choice to make and he made the wrong one. The use of DotF in AotC represents Anakin heading towards the moment that would determine the path he would select. It's for this reason that DotF is played immediately after The Force Theme. He rides off to rescue his mother. She dies at the hands of monsters. Rather than overcome his hate and despair, Anakin yields to it. It's for this reason that after the Force Theme and DotF the next theme we hear is a simmering rendition of The Imperial March. His fate has been sealed. Heck, the next time we see Anakin in a musical sense in the film is when he is forced to confront what he did. Again, he gives into hate and despair and we not only hear the Emperor/Sith theme we also here an overpowering statement of The Imperial March (this entire cue should have been released in CD).

The one thing I do regret is the relative absence of Anakin's Theme in AotC. I was hoping that Williams would have written a variation of the them that showed a matured Anakin. While still portraying the innocence of the original version, this variation would have been more action oriented and with more of the "rot" that deteriorates Anakin's Theme. We do here at least one very sombre, dying statement of Anakin's Theme during the end credits that is completely devoured by The Imperial March. Lucas should have been asked to elaborate on Anakin's Theme so that the transition for the character was more complete... Although, I suppose one could argue that Across the Stars accomplishes that. Afterall, there are permutations of The Imperial March twice in the concert arrangment of that theme, so perhaps it was decided that further development wasn't necessary.

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J.
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  In Response to:
Serge Desir
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Friday, May 6, 2005 (3:01 p.m.) 

> First, I will say that this is one of the few really good threads I've
> seen here from fans. Bravo, gentlemen.

Thanks, mate!

> Now, as far as Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme are concerned...

> I always viewed the use of DotF in TPM was to reflect the overarching
> conflict between Jedi and Sith being played on the larger scale of Lucas'
> cosmos; on a smaller scale, it would come to represent what Anakin
> Skywalker would be faced with. It is irrelevant whether or not Anakin's
> fate was predestined or not because he is ignorant of this fate. He still
> had a choice to make and he made the wrong one. The use of DotF in AotC
> represents Anakin heading towards the moment that would determine the path
> he would select. It's for this reason that DotF is played immediately
> after The Force Theme. He rides off to rescue his mother. She dies at the
> hands of monsters. Rather than overcome his hate and despair, Anakin
> yields to it. It's for this reason that after the Force Theme and DotF the
> next theme we hear is a simmering rendition of The Imperial March. His
> fate has been sealed. Heck, the next time we see Anakin in a musical sense
> in the film is when he is forced to confront what he did. Again, he gives
> into hate and despair and we not only hear the Emperor/Sith theme we also
> here an overpowering statement of The Imperial March (this entire cue
> should have been released in CD).

> The one thing I do regret is the relative absence of Anakin's Theme in
> AotC. I was hoping that Williams would have written a variation of the
> them that showed a matured Anakin. While still portraying the innocence of
> the original version, this variation would have been more action oriented
> and with more of the "rot" that deteriorates Anakin's Theme. We
> do here at least one very sombre, dying statement of Anakin's Theme during
> the end credits that is completely devoured by The Imperial March. Lucas
> should have been asked to elaborate on Anakin's Theme so that the
> transition for the character was more complete... Although, I suppose one
> could argue that Across the Stars accomplishes that. Afterall, there are
> permutations of The Imperial March twice in the concert arrangment of that
> theme, so perhaps it was decided that further development wasn't
> necessary.

AWESOME post! I agree entirely.


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J.
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  In Response to:
Waters
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Friday, May 6, 2005 (2:59 p.m.) 

> I am not really sure what to make of this. It seems that you liked the use
> of "Duel of Fates" in regard to Anakin, yet you state that his
> fate has already been decided. Well, then it really isn't much of a
> "Duel of Fates", since there is no other option. By claiming
> that Anakin has already made his decision at this point (Tusken slaughter)
> is to say that he has no more internal struggles left, and I think you
> will agree that that is not the case. The bottom line is, there is no
> reason to get so attached to the title of this piece.
If you take it
> completely literally, in a world where one's destiny is already decided,
> the title "Duel of Fates" has no place whatsoever.

Well, he is "the chosen one" who will bring "balance to the force." This is all true, but he brings a balance in a way the jedi didn't expect (this will probably be made clear in the film... it was in the book). So it kind of sounds like his fate was decided from the get go, no? Regardless, he doesn't know his fate has been decided (or maybe he does... this has more to do with theology than film scores). Having DOTF play as he's travelling to find his mother was great for me. Anyway, as far as Duel of the Fates and what it means and what it represents... Serge Desir left a response that perfectly sums up what I feel for the theme and what it represents for me. In TPM it DOTF represented something much larger (Jedi vs. Sith) whereas in AOTC, it represented something much more personal (Anakin's Fate).

> That would be perfectly true, if it were not for its original use in
> Episode I. In order for your argument to be valid you must ignore its
> original use.

Again, read Serge's post.

> Your reasoning here is either odd or simply flawed. Either you do not want
> to see the theme used in a versatile manner, and you like the new use
> William's found for it in Episode II. (though I feel "new use"
> is much too strong, since we really only got to hear the first thirty
> seconds of the cue.) Or you are saying that if it had been used in both
> the (Anakin) speeder scene and the Dooku fight, it would somehow be ok to
> have it in the third movie. First, I was unaware that score music had to
> follow such strict rules. Second, assuming there should be such rules,
> even though it was not in the Dooku fight scene, it was already used in a
> similar fight scene in Episode I.

Hmmm... Ok. I wouldn't have a problem with it being in Episode III. If I have lead one to believe so or if I have even stated so (which I don't believe I have) then let me say now that I would have no problem with it. DOTF is a great piece of music. Actually, all of the themes from Episode 1 are actually my favorites in this new trilogy (not a big fan of the Love Theme... BOTH is pretty damn hot though). My entire point, however, was that if DOTF is not in this episode, I'll understand why and won't have a problem with it at all. Now what I was saying with the Dooku fight... if DOTF had have played during it, I would feel a need for DOTF in episode III. In TPM, it was grand. In AOTC, it became intimate. The fact that Williams/Lucas didn't use it at any other time during the film lead me to believe that the theme had become more Anakin's than the Jedi's or Sith's. As far as scoring rules... I don't believe in rules when it comes to creativity, so Williams and Lucas can do whatever they want to with the theme; it's their's. I simply think it's more poignant what they're doing with it and will find it... i dunno... more "cool" if they don't use it in episode III (seeing as how they used it in episode II). Oh yeah... and I LOVE versatility. The first cue from ROTS... the use of the force theme is AMAZING. It's one of my favorite tracks.

> "Duel of Fates" could easily find a place in Episode III in
> almost any Jedi vs. Sith scene, simply because that is how it was
> originally used (and ignoring the courtcase-esque analysis it just builds
> so well into an epic lightsaber duel, which to me is what it's all about).
> Now if one wants to say that it had an added use in its very brief
> appearance in Episode II as a representation of Anakin's internal
> struggle, that may also be true. I, however, do not see that as
> "The" turning point for Anakin, and everything he has done and
> will do since that point is under the complete lure of the dark side. Even
> if that were the case, it's original use still exists, as you have more or
> less agreed, and that does not disappear because they did not use it for
> the Dooku fight.

Right you are. It could find many places in the new film and if it does, so be it. I'll smile and say "hell, yeah!" If it doesn't, I'll smile and say "hell, YEAH!" And I completely understand where you're coming from with the turning point thing. Not everyone sees it my way and that's what's so great about the story. It means different things to different people.

> To be honest, I don't want to hear "Duel of Fates" for every
> lightsaber fight scene in the third movie, though I would like to hear
> some sort of reprise at some point, mostly because I think its uses have
> not been exhausted. At the same time, its lack of repeated use paved the
> way for "Battle of Heroes" which is powerful in its own right.

Very true. GREAT piece. Thanks for the talkback. This has been awesome.

J.


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Mark
(c-24-5-9-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)

  In Response to:
Waters
Inevitability vs. struggle   Friday, May 27, 2005 (11:23 p.m.) 

> I must say I strongly disagree with your arguement here. To say that
> "Duel of Fates" has no place in this movie because Anakin has
> already chosen his fate is utterly ridiculous. Yes, he did slaughter the
> Tuskens, but that does not mean his fate was sealed at that moment (Even
> though we all know where it was heading, and this was certainly a turning
> point, that scene was not the final sealing of his fate. You might as well
> just claim that his destiny was chosen from birth, and "Duel of
> Fates" should have never been created in the first place). To say
> there was no chance of redemption after that moment is to deny the
> intention of the films as a whole. After all, in the end Anakin is
> ultimately turned back to the light side of the force in Episode VI, so it
> is not as if their was any point in his life where he was pure evil and
> could never be a good guy again.

> Finally, if you want to get real technical, and break it down semantically
> (as you already attempted). Anytime, anyone fights to the death or at all,
> it is a "Duel of Fates". Two people are "dueling", and
> both of their "fates" will be changed by the outcome. Your
> arguement simply is not a valid reason for throwing out "Duel of
> Fates". I personally would love to see a rendition of it in Episode
> III, mainly because I remember how pumped I started to get when I heard it
> in Episode II, and I also remember how disappointed I was when they did
> not continue it. If only they had played it while he cut down the Tuskens.
> Of course, we neither saw him cut them down, nor heard "Duel of
> Fates". It would have been nice to see the rage. Through Episode II,
> it just looks like Anakin is turning into Vader because he is a whiney
> brat, not because he is ridiculously powerful and sees the dark side as a
> better outlet for that power.

I guess I have a problem with this discussion of when exactly the "point of no return was" - firstly, because there's no definitive answer so any argument would be unfounded in real evidence. But secondly, because you run the risk of missing the point if you dissect it like this. Anakin's eventual transformation into Vader must be viewed as the amalgamation of various pressures - his precocious nature, his fear, his pride, his bad luck, his caprice, and a particularly calculating and really evilly brilliant politician. A point of no return would narrow this view so much; Anakin's fall ought to be viewed in a larger context.

By this reckoning, Duel of the Fates belongs in Revenge of the Sith just as much as any other film, for the battle between good and evil - the Manichaean struggle within Anakin - is far closer to the surface. Despite the inevitability of his fall, the struggle continues - and intensifies - until that final decision to side with the deformed emperor-to-be. Just because his fall is inevitable does not mean that he is not constantly torn apart by his struggle to find his real identity... Duel of the Fates (and in ROTS, Battle of the Heroes) broadly represents this struggle, that is, in fact, the centerpiece of this film.

Besides, I consider this discussion academic, because though I enjoy a space opera of the 1977 variety, I found ROTS to be extremely powerful in its own way - despite not using either "Duel of the Fates" or "Battle of the Heroes" overmuch. Indeed, as much as it may make a less-than-coherent album, Williams' more emotion-centric scoring for this film works brilliantly in the film, and if you see the film, it works far better on album as well.

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blah
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(ip24-255-199-22.ks.ks.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Waters
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Saturday, December 17, 2005 (1:19 p.m.) 

>It doesn't matter. The song played during Obi-Wan and Anikan's duel was still awesome.

I must say I strongly disagree with your arguement here. To say that
> "Duel of Fates" has no place in this movie because Anakin has
> already chosen his fate is utterly ridiculous. Yes, he did slaughter the
> Tuskens, but that does not mean his fate was sealed at that moment (Even
> though we all know where it was heading, and this was certainly a turning
> point, that scene was not the final sealing of his fate. You might as well
> just claim that his destiny was chosen from birth, and "Duel of
> Fates" should have never been created in the first place). To say
> there was no chance of redemption after that moment is to deny the
> intention of the films as a whole. After all, in the end Anakin is
> ultimately turned back to the light side of the force in Episode VI, so it
> is not as if their was any point in his life where he was pure evil and
> could never be a good guy again.

> Finally, if you want to get real technical, and break it down semantically
> (as you already attempted). Anytime, anyone fights to the death or at all,
> it is a "Duel of Fates". Two people are "dueling", and
> both of their "fates" will be changed by the outcome. Your
> arguement simply is not a valid reason for throwing out "Duel of
> Fates". I personally would love to see a rendition of it in Episode
> III, mainly because I remember how pumped I started to get when I heard it
> in Episode II, and I also remember how disappointed I was when they did
> not continue it. If only they had played it while he cut down the Tuskens.
> Of course, we neither saw him cut them down, nor heard "Duel of
> Fates". It would have been nice to see the rage. Through Episode II,
> it just looks like Anakin is turning into Vader because he is a whiney
> brat, not because he is ridiculously powerful and sees the dark side as a
> better outlet for that power.


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RabbitFly
(32.84-48-98.nextgentel.com)

  In Response to:
Waters
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Wednesday, February 1, 2006 (7:36 a.m.) 

Actually although the song is called duel of the fates, I believe it also had a nickname of Darth Mauls Theme on several soundtracks, and seing how that would make the song simply represent something dark, Anaking killing the tuskens would then make it fit right in.

> I must say I strongly disagree with your arguement here. To say that
> "Duel of Fates" has no place in this movie because Anakin has
> already chosen his fate is utterly ridiculous. Yes, he did slaughter the
> Tuskens, but that does not mean his fate was sealed at that moment (Even
> though we all know where it was heading, and this was certainly a turning
> point, that scene was not the final sealing of his fate. You might as well
> just claim that his destiny was chosen from birth, and "Duel of
> Fates" should have never been created in the first place). To say
> there was no chance of redemption after that moment is to deny the
> intention of the films as a whole. After all, in the end Anakin is
> ultimately turned back to the light side of the force in Episode VI, so it
> is not as if their was any point in his life where he was pure evil and
> could never be a good guy again.

> Finally, if you want to get real technical, and break it down semantically
> (as you already attempted). Anytime, anyone fights to the death or at all,
> it is a "Duel of Fates". Two people are "dueling", and
> both of their "fates" will be changed by the outcome. Your
> arguement simply is not a valid reason for throwing out "Duel of
> Fates". I personally would love to see a rendition of it in Episode
> III, mainly because I remember how pumped I started to get when I heard it
> in Episode II, and I also remember how disappointed I was when they did
> not continue it. If only they had played it while he cut down the Tuskens.
> Of course, we neither saw him cut them down, nor heard "Duel of
> Fates". It would have been nice to see the rage. Through Episode II,
> it just looks like Anakin is turning into Vader because he is a whiney
> brat, not because he is ridiculously powerful and sees the dark side as a
> better outlet for that power.


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Mister Frodo
(cpe-76-187-36-156.tx.res.rr.com)

  In Response to:
J.
Re: regarding Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme   Wednesday, November 15, 2006 (8:44 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: Star Wars Episode I Ultimate Edition: Anakin is Free  

> I've read quite a few reviews of the Revenge of the Sith score now and
> many people seem to be disappointed at Williams' non-inclusion of Duel of
> the Fates or Anakin's Theme on the soundtrack release. A poster at AICN
> made a very good point about regarding Duel of the Fates. He referred to
> this theme as representing the different paths Anakin could have chosen:
> the Light or the Dark.

> In Attack of the Clones many were happy, yet baffled for its inclusion
> when Anakin was on his way to search for his mother. What's interesting is
> his reaction to his mother's death is when he chose his path. He acted out
> in anger and emotion and slaughtered the tuskens. Therefore, the Duel
> theme makes sense (on a personal level) and being that he's already chosen
> his fate (perhaps without knowing), Duel of the Fates has no place in
> Episode III (concerning Anakin at least).

No, on the Episode III DVD, George Lucas talks about how he didn't want to use Duel of the Fates for the Anakin-Obiwan fight because he felt it should be more personal. That's why we have Battle of the Heroes. I believe that Duel of the Fates is more of a default duel theme of good vs. evil (that's why it appears when Yoda duels the Emperor.) But your point is good too. As a good vs. evil theme, it can be used in Episode II when Anakin is searching for his mother.

> Of course, it was used during the duel of Maul, Obi-Wan, and Qui Gon. So
> how do I explain THAT? Well, in a much broader sense, the theme represents
> the conflict of the Light and the Dark... two good jedi duelling one evil
> sith. I'm sure Williams could have found some excuse to include it, but
> this final episode involves a much more personal conflict than the
> previous two films, so I'm glad Duel of the Fates (though a great theme)
> wasn't included on the soundtrack release and I'm hoping it's not in the
> film.

It is used in the film, when Yoda and the Emperor fight. I guess you hadn't seen the film yet.

> As far as Anakin's theme... I've always felt this particular them
> represented his innocence and his goodness. It also foreshadows his doomed
> fate, but by Episode III, he's not innocent and his goodness is leaving
> him fast. He's basically met that fate. Considering the soundtrack and the
> novel, I don't see a place for Anakin's theme.

I was little upset Anakin's Theme got little attention in both Episode II and III. It is in Episode III, but only in the film, not on the soundtrack, and it only appears once. This is, as you said, to highlight Anakin's last veins of innocence as it's used right before he resolves to save Padme (thus bringing him to the Dark Side.)

> A few others:

> Luke and Leia's theme would have been nice, but I don't think it takes
> away from anything with it not being there. They aren't developed
> characters yet and taking the overall story in a linear approach, their
> importance isn't quite known in Episode III (we all know, of course... but
> if these films were made in order, we wouldn't really know).

> The Death Star motif... I'm actually not familiar with it (gasp), but
> again, it's not developed yet, so it's absence doesn't hinder anything for
> me.

> Yoda's theme is tricky. I don't want to hear it in it's sweet, playful
> form. It wouldn't fit that way. An exciting variation would be nice,
> though (a la the Dooku vs. Yoda scene in Attack of the Clones). We'll see.

Yeah, they put it in as well, even though it doesn't appear much. I don't know why this didn't make the soundtrack.

> The Emperor's theme is not so tricky. It's absence on the soundtrack
> release scares me. More than any of the above mentioned themes, this one
> is actually NEEDED in this film. I was disappointed that it wasn't
> included on the soundtrack, but I'll be EXTREMELY disappointed if it
> doesn't play a decent role in the film.

Thankfully, it does play a role in the film. I'm still disappointed that neither the Episode II nor III soundtracks feature much Emperor's Theme. It plays a part in each film. Why doesn't Sony put it on the albums?!

> A New Hope and End Credits is a brilliant track. I don't understand the
> disappointment with this one. It gives us Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and
> the force theme within the first minute. THERE is your themes for Luke and
> Leia... we don't need the theme from Jedi. I like the end credits part
> (the star wars/luke theme)... it sounds more subdued, which is appropriate
> for this episode.

The Force theme is used as a reference to Binary Sunset in A New Hope. That's why it appears.

> I've listend the Revenge of the Sith the whole way through once so far. I,
> for one, am highly impressed. This holds more emotional weight than ANY of
> the previous scores. It's definately not as thematic, but neither was
> Attack of the Clones. I liked every track this go round and think it's the
> second best of all the scores. Empire will always be the best (one of the
> best if not THE best score ever written for any movie, IMHO). I'll
> probably update when I've listened to it a few more times.

Yeah, I agree. People seem to not like Episode III because it only has one major theme, but they ignore that Episode II had the same thing. I think the score for Episode III is awesome, emotional, and just plain brilliant. If Sony Classical doesn't release a 2-disc album soon, I'll get on my knees and beg. Seriously. I WANT IT.

> One more theme missing from the release... the music that played during
> the duel of Vader and Luke. That is my favortie cue from Jedi (the
> beautiful choral piece). I was expecting it for some reason, but now I'm
> kind of hoping it doesn't appear in this film. Between that theme and the
> Battle of the Heroes theme... well, the Jedi one is more important and
> more beautiful. It represented a family duel between Vader and Luke, where
> as Heroes is between old friends Obi-Wan and Anakin. So I'm glad Williams
> composed a different piece for this new duel. I feel the duels should not
> be really connected and by having the different themes, I feel this was
> accomplished.

Yeah, the Luke-Vader theme from Jedi could have been used, but instead Williams opted to use the Imperial March from the duel in Empire Strikes Back. I guess this was supposed to connect the two duels. Oddly enough, the Imperial March only plays during the first part of the Yoda-Emperor fight. Odd.

> Well, that's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth. I'd love to here
> others' thoughts on this. Later.

A good post. You might have had a little more information had you seen the movie first. But yeah, it was pretty insightful. Good job.



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