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Comments about the soundtrack for Star Wars: A New Hope (John Williams)
Holst

Rolan
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  Responses to this Comment:
futuremartymcfly
Holst   Sunday, July 9, 2006 (8:07 p.m.) 

It is interesting to note that the ending of "Imperial Attack" sounds very similar to Gustav Holst's "Neptune" from The Planets. Williams undoubtably payed Holst a brilliant tribute here with the alternating harp and celesta glissandos in contrary motion with string tremolos and sustained ominous brass chords.

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futuremartymcfly
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  In Response to:
Rolan

  Responses to this Comment:
Rolan
Arne Barnard
Re: Holst   Thursday, August 3, 2006 (2:42 p.m.) 

> It is interesting to note that the ending of "Imperial Attack"
> sounds very similar to Gustav Holst's "Neptune" from The
> Planets. Williams undoubtably payed Holst a brilliant tribute here with
> the alternating harp and celesta glissandos in contrary motion with string
> tremolos and sustained ominous brass chords.

Really? I thought it sounds more like a tribute to Holsts Mars.


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Rolan
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  In Response to:
futuremartymcfly

  Responses to this Comment:
roybatty
Re: Holst   Monday, September 4, 2006 (1:38 p.m.) 

> Really? I thought it sounds more like a tribute to Holsts Mars.

Listen to the ending (last like 20 seconds) of "Imperial Attack" (available on the 1997 RCA and 2004 Sony Classical Recordings). It ends with soft tremolo high strings and alternating harp glissandos (not celesta, my mistake). But regardless, it gives a feeling of parts of Holst's Neptune.



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roybatty
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  In Response to:
Rolan

  Responses to this Comment:
Steen Kaargaard Nielsen
Alice Keymer
Rolan
S.Venkatnarayanan
Re: Holst   Thursday, October 5, 2006 (7:54 p.m.) 

> Listen to the ending (last like 20 seconds) of "Imperial Attack"
> (available on the 1997 RCA and 2004 Sony Classical Recordings). It ends
> with soft tremolo high strings and alternating harp glissandos (not
> celesta, my mistake). But regardless, it gives a feeling of parts of
> Holst's Neptune.

It's true - it does sound lik Neptune. But then, Williams was heavily influenced by Romantic Classical music (at Lucas's request) and the finished product, while bearing the composer's own mark, is very much a patchwork of derived ideas and motifs. Other examples which I noticed ( and have been confirmed by expers)include the rebellion theme (or is it called the resistence theme?) which lifts a three-note motif from "The sorcerer's Apprentice" by Dukas: da-daaaaaaa-dum, da-daaaaaa-dum. Also, the Main Theme/Luke's Theme utilizes the structural pattern of Wagner's "Ride of the Walkyries" while the tonality of it seems indebted to Korngold's score to "King's Row". Additionally, if you don't know this already, you'l notice how the "Force Theme" uses the structural contours of "Adante" from Tchaikovsky's "SWAN LAKE" So it could well be regarded as a reworking of that original melody. However, it must be frankly admitted that this kind of practice with Williams is by no means limited to Star Wars, oh no. Many have noticed that the two-note ostinato shark-motif in Jaws is the exact same as the opening of the fourth movement of Dvorak's Symphony No.9, while not so many have noticed that the first six notes of the "out to sea" theme have been lifted from Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf". I've also read somewhere that the melody from Schindler's List is derived from one of Mahler's symphonies, and I believe that the Jurassic Park theme is asort of "slow-tempo" version of Bach's Brandenburg concerto no.3 in D. This last one is perhaps more controversial: no one else seems to have mentioned anywhere, but i'm pretty convinced that,although the tonality is different,the underlying structure is the same as the Bach.


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Steen Kaargaard Nielsen
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  In Response to:
roybatty
Re: Holst   Saturday, October 7, 2006 (2:39 a.m.) 
• Now Playing: No music playing  

I find this a truly interesting thread, fascinated as I am with Williams' 'collaborations' with dead composers, and will check out the 'borrowings' mentioned. The first time I listened to Parade of the Ewoks I immediately got the sense that it was almost composed on top of Prokofiev's March from his opera Love for Three Oranges. And The Dune Sea of Tatooine from A New Hope is more or less lifted from the beginning of the second part of Stravinsky's Sacre. But perhaps this has long been common knowledge.

I wonder whether anyone has DETAILED information about what music made up Lucas' original temp track (I mean specific cues).



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Alice Keymer
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  In Response to:
roybatty

  Responses to this Comment:
Mister Frodo
Re: Holst   Sunday, December 31, 2006 (5:53 p.m.) 

> It's true - it does sound lik Neptune. But then, Williams was heavily
> influenced by Romantic Classical music (at Lucas's request) and the
> finished product, while bearing the composer's own mark, is very much a
> patchwork of derived ideas and motifs. Other examples which I noticed (
> and have been confirmed by expers)include the rebellion theme (or is it
> called the resistence theme?) which lifts a three-note motif from
> "The sorcerer's Apprentice" by Dukas: da-daaaaaaa-dum,
> da-daaaaaa-dum. Also, the Main Theme/Luke's Theme utilizes the structural
> pattern of Wagner's "Ride of the Walkyries" while the tonality
> of it seems indebted to Korngold's score to "King's Row".
> Additionally, if you don't know this already, you'l notice how the
> "Force Theme" uses the structural contours of "Adante"
> from Tchaikovsky's "SWAN LAKE" So it could well be regarded as a
> reworking of that original melody. However, it must be frankly admitted
> that this kind of practice with Williams is by no means limited to Star
> Wars, oh no. Many have noticed that the two-note ostinato shark-motif in
> Jaws is the exact same as the opening of the fourth movement of Dvorak's
> Symphony No.9, while not so many have noticed that the first six notes of
> the "out to sea" theme have been lifted from Prokofiev's
> "Peter and the Wolf". I've also read somewhere that the melody
> from Schindler's List is derived from one of Mahler's symphonies, and I
> believe that the Jurassic Park theme is asort of "slow-tempo"
> version of Bach's Brandenburg concerto no.3 in D. This last one is perhaps
> more controversial: no one else seems to have mentioned anywhere, but i'm
> pretty convinced that,although the tonality is different,the underlying
> structure is the same as the Bach.

What is the force theme. I have never heard of the force theme. Do you mean the throne room?



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Mister Frodo
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  In Response to:
Alice Keymer
Re: Holst   Wednesday, February 7, 2007 (9:07 p.m.) 

> What is the force theme. I have never heard of the force theme. Do you
> mean the throne room?

The Force Theme, also known as Ben Kenobi's Theme, is played when the character of Ben Kenobi makes his entrance. You can hear it very clearly in the film when Ben is remembering his old name of Obi-Wan (on the 1997 and 2004 soundtracks this is the beginning of the track "Tales of a Jedi"). It does appear in the Throne Room; after the opening fanfare, a bold statement of the theme is presented and then repeated before the cue moves on.

Hope that helps.



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Rolan
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  In Response to:
roybatty
Re: Holst   Sunday, February 25, 2007 (10:41 a.m.) 

>I've also read somewhere that the melody
> from Schindler's List is derived from one of Mahler's symphonies.

You're correct. I wrote that post sometime back when I said that part of Schindler's List theme is similar to Mahler's 8th symphony (part where the tiefen glocken in A (bells) introduces the strings playing oscillating descending fifths.) I thought it was brilliant what Williams did. Then again he may not necessarily have derived it from that, but that is just one possible theory. The two-note motif from Jaws (minor second) is a basic interval and doesn't necessarily mean copy from Dvorak's 9th. But in general I do think that Williams pays tribute to these dead composers in his works and uses their brilliance to augment his. Nothing wrong that.



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S.Venkatnarayanan
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  In Response to:
roybatty
Absolutely Wrong   Monday, May 12, 2008 (3:39 a.m.) 

> It's true - it does sound lik Neptune. But then, Williams was heavily
> influenced by Romantic Classical music (at Lucas's request) and the
> finished product, while bearing the composer's own mark, is very much a
> patchwork of derived ideas and motifs. Other examples which I noticed (
> and have been confirmed by expers)include the rebellion theme (or is it
> called the resistence theme?) which lifts a three-note motif from
> "The sorcerer's Apprentice" by Dukas: da-daaaaaaa-dum,
> da-daaaaaa-dum. Also, the Main Theme/Luke's Theme utilizes the structural
> pattern of Wagner's "Ride of the Walkyries" while the tonality
> of it seems indebted to Korngold's score to "King's Row".
> Additionally, if you don't know this already, you'l notice how the
> "Force Theme" uses the structural contours of "Adante"
> from Tchaikovsky's "SWAN LAKE" So it could well be regarded as a
> reworking of that original melody. However, it must be frankly admitted
> that this kind of practice with Williams is by no means limited to Star
> Wars, oh no. Many have noticed that the two-note ostinato shark-motif in
> Jaws is the exact same as the opening of the fourth movement of Dvorak's
> Symphony No.9, while not so many have noticed that the first six notes of
> the "out to sea" theme have been lifted from Prokofiev's
> "Peter and the Wolf". I've also read somewhere that the melody
> from Schindler's List is derived from one of Mahler's symphonies, and I
> believe that the Jurassic Park theme is asort of "slow-tempo"
> version of Bach's Brandenburg concerto no.3 in D. This last one is perhaps
> more controversial: no one else seems to have mentioned anywhere, but i'm
> pretty convinced that,although the tonality is different,the underlying
> structure is the same as the Bach.

Absolutely Wrong! Sir, i believe you don't listen to music properly. That's why making very poor comments. It is ridiculous to say that "Jurassic Park" theme is a sort of "slow tempo" version of Bach's Brandenburg concerto, this clearly shows your imagination is too much.

(Message edited on Monday, May 12, 2008, at 3:42 a.m.)


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Arne Barnard
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  In Response to:
futuremartymcfly
Re: Holst   Wednesday, January 13, 2016 (8:25 p.m.) 

> Really? I thought it sounds more like a tribute to Holsts Mars.

That would be correct-it IS Mars.

And MARS was NOT the impetus for THE IMPERIAL MARCH as everyone likes to posit.

The IMPERIAL MARCH was born of THE IMPERIAL MOTIF from Episode 4.

And The IMPERIAL MOTIF was most likely inspired by the overture to SWAN LAKE.



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