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Comments about the soundtrack for Stargate (David Arnold)
James Horner stole this big-time!

Sam
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A dissenting voice
James Horner stole this big-time!   Monday, January 1, 2007 (10:21 a.m.) 

Just now listining to the "Stargate Deluxe Edition," a major middle-eastern theme that keeps appearing sounded very familiar. Then it struck me that it's in James Horner's replacement score for "Troy," both as one of the themes and as the end title song, "Remember Me." I guess he was remembering David Arnold.


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A dissenting voice
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Sam

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terci
Sam
Re: James Horner stole this big-time!   Monday, January 1, 2007 (6:52 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: Stargate (David Arnold)  

> Just now listining to the "Stargate Deluxe Edition," a major
> middle-eastern theme that keeps appearing sounded very familiar. Then it
> struck me that it's in James Horner's replacement score for
> "Troy," both as one of the themes and as the end title song,
> "Remember Me." I guess he was remembering David Arnold.

Not quite. The theme was used in "Glory" a few years earlier (1989), which itself probably ripped it off of a Ralph Vaughn Williams piece. Try listening to "Fantasia on a Theme by T. Talis" by VW and then "Burning the Town of Darien" (I believe, though it might be "The Whipping," I've forgotten) and you'll hear the same four notes that David Arnold later used in Stargate.



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terci
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A dissenting voice
hey asshole   Tuesday, January 2, 2007 (6:33 a.m.) 

You just made a fool out of yourself.



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A dissenting voice
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terci
thank you, terci   Tuesday, January 2, 2007 (1:20 p.m.) 

... you just taught me to hate.



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Sam
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Re: James Horner stole this big-time!   Sunday, January 7, 2007 (9:59 a.m.) 

> Not quite. The theme was used in "Glory" a few years earlier
> (1989), which itself probably ripped it off of a Ralph Vaughn Williams
> piece. Try listening to "Fantasia on a Theme by T. Talis" by VW
> and then "Burning the Town of Darien" (I believe, though it
> might be "The Whipping," I've forgotten) and you'll hear the
> same four notes that David Arnold later used in Stargate.

I already knew about "Burning the Town of Darien," and orginally thought Horner was elaborating on that theme in "Troy," but Arnold's theme in "Stargate" is a much closer match to what Horner later did in "Troy."



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A dissenting voice
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Olly
Re: James Horner stole this big-time!   Sunday, January 7, 2007 (7:01 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: A View to a Kill (John Barry)  

> I already knew about "Burning the Town of Darien," and orginally
> thought Horner was elaborating on that theme in "Troy," but
> Arnold's theme in "Stargate" is a much closer match to what
> Horner later did in "Troy."

For all I know, you may be right. Still, as the similarity is only those four notes at the beginning of the "Stargate" theme, and then goes different places afterwards, I'm inclined to think otherwise. Also, it's my impression that it's far more Horner's style to recycle and even re-invent his own motifs than steal those of other composers, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have no evidence for that, though, just a gut feeling.



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Olly
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Nick
James Horner regularly steals   Wednesday, January 10, 2007 (2:19 a.m.) 

I haven't listened to the comparison so am not sure whether Horner stole from Arnold, but Horner regularly uses music by other composers when he can't be bothered to come up with anything original. See particularly 'Sneakers' where he rips out a bleeding chunk from Shostakovich 5, and 'Jade' where he uses Stravinsky's Rite of spring. Mind you, if 'Titanic' is an example of his original music, I think I prefer it when he steals from others....



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Nick
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Olly

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A dissenting voice
Re: James Horner regularly steals   Wednesday, January 10, 2007 (10:45 p.m.) 

> I haven't listened to the comparison so am not sure whether Horner stole
> from Arnold, but Horner regularly uses music by other composers when he
> can't be bothered to come up with anything original. See particularly
> 'Sneakers' where he rips out a bleeding chunk from Shostakovich 5, and
> 'Jade' where he uses Stravinsky's Rite of spring. Mind you, if 'Titanic'
> is an example of his original music, I think I prefer it when he steals
> from others....

Wrong.

Horner had nothing to do with the "Rite Of Spring" music in JADE - his score was replaced with that music. The only significant music of Horner's in that film is the opening titles, and any sort of soft synth choir you might hear from time to time.

Funny how NO ONE EVER mentions the similarities between David Arnold's theme to "Independence Day" and Horner's "Legends Of The Fall" - which Horner wrote first two years earlier.

It cuts both ways, Horner haters.



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Dood
Re: James Horner regularly steals   Sunday, January 14, 2007 (9:46 p.m.) 

> Funny how NO ONE EVER mentions the similarities between David Arnold's
> theme to "Independence Day" and Horner's "Legends Of The
> Fall" - which Horner wrote first two years earlier.

> It cuts both ways, Horner haters.

Exactly. From the lack of mention that gets, I was starting to think I was imagining it.



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Dood
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roybatty
Re: James Horner regularly steals   Wednesday, April 11, 2007 (1:40 p.m.) 

Well, when he's the one who opens the door, what can you say but "way to go, stupid"? James does make a routine habit of stealing from composers who aren't alive to fight for their copyright (most notably Prokofiev in Willow and Borodin at the end of American Tale.) And the fact that he had the balls to swipe Bruce Broughton's The Boy Who Could Fly as his main chorale theme to Titanic really struck me as interesting. Also, didn't he get the pants sued off of him for stealing El Sid and puting it into Mask of Zorro? Maybe why he didn't compose a score between Titanic and Bicentenial Man. That I think isn't even so bad, but when the guy decides that he can write one or two cues and just throw them into later projects and call it new stuff, I just wanna throw a Boston Cream Pie at the guy. I mean, he writes some musical sequence in Glory, then takes that one sequence and turns it into 90% of the soundtrack for Courage Under Fire, and then what does he do with it?? Gives it to Cameron for Titanic (The Tank Battle at the beginning of Courage Under Fire and the Iceberg scene from Titanic are exactly, exactly, exactly the same.) And, of course, who could forget his famous 4-note chromatic theme that is in every dreary piece of crap he composes? y'all know what I'm talkin' about, that idiot music he put into the landing scene of Troy? I won't fault him for puting it in that movie because he was under the crunch. I understand how time constraints can really push composers to and past their limit. but, how many different movies does that really need to be in? I mean, I've heard it in Willow, Aliens, Troy, Glory, CUF, Titanic, Star Trek 2 (and I think 3, but I can't say for certain).... I don't think he has it in the Rocketeer, but it's been a while since I've heard that score. Anyhow, the point is, parlor tricks may be okay, but not doing anything to change them in the least little bit for different projects is just plain lazy. And to just take from other composers without changing anything is the same, but even worse because the composer never came up with what he/she took. And everybody is going to say that every composer does that. Well, as much as I hate to throw the name out there, I dare you to find more than 2 examples of John Williams taking a piece that belongs to somebody else and just throwing it in (and I'm talking about plagarism, not continuing somebody elses theme for a series of films or something of that sort.) And, No, I'm not trying to say that John Williams is God and that Horner is the Devil or any idiartic thing like that. The thing that I would say is that, between the 3 big J's (James Horner, Jerry Goldsmith, and John Williams) Horner is the youngest and is, by far, the earliest to burn out and treat film scoring like it's a monkey on his back. I hope he pulls out of it. I mean, I looked at Troy and Aliens and thought "Man, if the directors just give him no time at all, he writes great stuff." so, I think if he can be that "fast-working" kind of composer on a regular basis, he might truly attain greatness by the time his career is over. Despite my mild distaste for his work, I have all ten fingers crossed for the guy.

By the way, did I mention that I think this Stargate score is freakin' Amazing?

Happy listening, guys.

> Exactly. From the lack of mention that gets, I was starting to think I was
> imagining it.



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roybatty
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Dood
Re: James Horner regularly steals   Tuesday, July 17, 2007 (6:13 p.m.) 

> Well, when he's the one who opens the door, what can you say but "way
> to go, stupid"? James does make a routine habit of stealing from
> composers who aren't alive to fight for their copyright (most notably
> Prokofiev in Willow and Borodin at the end of American Tale.) And the fact
> that he had the balls to swipe Bruce Broughton's The Boy Who Could Fly as
> his main chorale theme to Titanic really struck me as interesting. Also,
> didn't he get the pants sued off of him for stealing El Sid and puting it
> into Mask of Zorro? Maybe why he didn't compose a score between Titanic
> and Bicentenial Man. That I think isn't even so bad, but when the guy
> decides that he can write one or two cues and just throw them into later
> projects and call it new stuff, I just wanna throw a Boston Cream Pie at
> the guy. I mean, he writes some musical sequence in Glory, then takes that
> one sequence and turns it into 90% of the soundtrack for Courage Under
> Fire, and then what does he do with it?? Gives it to Cameron for Titanic
> (The Tank Battle at the beginning of Courage Under Fire and the Iceberg
> scene from Titanic are exactly, exactly, exactly the same.) And, of
> course, who could forget his famous 4-note chromatic theme that is in
> every dreary piece of crap he composes? y'all know what I'm talkin' about,
> that idiot music he put into the landing scene of Troy? I won't fault him
> for puting it in that movie because he was under the crunch. I understand
> how time constraints can really push composers to and past their limit.
> but, how many different movies does that really need to be in? I mean,
> I've heard it in Willow, Aliens, Troy, Glory, CUF, Titanic, Star Trek 2
> (and I think 3, but I can't say for certain).... I don't think he has it
> in the Rocketeer, but it's been a while since I've heard that score.
> Anyhow, the point is, parlor tricks may be okay, but not doing anything to
> change them in the least little bit for different projects is just plain
> lazy. And to just take from other composers without changing anything is
> the same, but even worse because the composer never came up with what
> he/she took. And everybody is going to say that every composer does that.
> Well, as much as I hate to throw the name out there, I dare you to find
> more than 2 examples of John Williams taking a piece that belongs to
> somebody else and just throwing it in (and I'm talking about plagarism,
> not continuing somebody elses theme for a series of films or something of
> that sort.) And, No, I'm not trying to say that John Williams is God and
> that Horner is the Devil or any idiartic thing like that. The thing that I
> would say is that, between the 3 big J's (James Horner, Jerry Goldsmith,
> and John Williams) Horner is the youngest and is, by far, the earliest to
> burn out and treat film scoring like it's a monkey on his back. I hope he
> pulls out of it. I mean, I looked at Troy and Aliens and thought
> "Man, if the directors just give him no time at all, he writes great
> stuff." so, I think if he can be that "fast-working" kind
> of composer on a regular basis, he might truly attain greatness by the
> time his career is over. Despite my mild distaste for his work, I have all
> ten fingers crossed for the guy.

> By the way, did I mention that I think this Stargate score is freakin'
> Amazing?

> Happy listening, guys.

What do you mean when you say that the Titanic "chorale theme" is stolen from Bruce Broughton's The Boy Who Could Fly?? In which scene of Titanic does this music feature??


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