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Comments about the soundtrack for Troy (Gabriel Yared/James Horner)
Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!

Andy Dufresne
<Send E-Mail>
(reth364-isdn-a030.otenet.gr)


  Responses to this Comment:
Simoon
Ivor Davies
chris
Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Wednesday, October 13, 2004 (11:04 a.m.) 

I have heard Yared’s score and I have to say that it is an amazing work indeed! There is one think I have to say though although I doubt anybody will read this post but anyway : This Tanja Tzarovska singer is really good and well done to Yared for using her in the score and all. The thing is however that it is quite historically wrong, using Slavic singing for a movie about Greek battles. Ancient Macedonia used to be a very big area that covered part of Greece, Albania, today’s Macedonia, and other parts of eastern Europe and was populated by people from many ethnicities of those areas. These people spoke Ancient Greek (not Macedonian?! There is no Macedonian language, its Slavic (ex Yugoslavian)). That’s why its called Greek Mythology. Now after ex Yugoslavia’s separation a part of that area decided they wanted to be called “Macedonia”, which of course they can do if they want to, since that used to be part of ancient Macedonia anyway. This however doesn’t mean that a singer(s) from the country now called Macedonia has much to do with the story of Troy, Achilles, Paris, Helene or Hector and so on. It is exactly like making a story about American Indians and get a country singer to do the song for it because that’s what they sing now over there.

I think that Yared (and Horner) as well should have researched a bit more on this matter and perhaps try to imagine another way of incorporating singing into the score, that would more resemble ancient Greek music.

Thanks a lot for reading this, and let me say once again that Yared’s Troy is an amazing score that should be made available to averybody!

Andy

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Simoon
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(at01-m73.net.htnet.hr)

  In Response to:
Andy Dufresne

  Responses to this Comment:
Andy
equinox
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Wednesday, October 13, 2004 (3:56 p.m.) 

I agree with you about certain things: f.e. in those times they spoke ancient greek, not macedonian, but as far as I know the entire movie is on english, the language that wasn't used there like EVER, so singing on one of the languages from the parts that did belong to the ancient Greece doesn't seem so strange. Second thing: except the End credit song, music, especially Sparta, Hector's Funeral and the Mourning women resembles the ancient greek music, believe it or not some of the folk music from all the countries that once were part of the ancient empires like Greece or the great macedonian empire still sounds like that. Wonder WHY???
And the last thing: there is no language and was never ever a language called YUGOSLAVIAN!!!!!!! Yugoslavia was the country that had 6 republics , and one of them was Macedonia and people there spoke and still speak macedonian! And they spoke it even during the osmanic occupation, and I'm sure you know how long that lasted! About languages: Slovenia has slovenian, Serbia serbian, Monte Negro slightly different serbian, Croatia croatian, and finally Bosnia and Herzegowina croatian-serbian. I'm not going to elaborate for how long they have been using them, because it will take too much of my time.
"Slavic" refers to a bigger group of languages.
And by the way, the name Yugoslavia ( Jugoslavija ) means jug=south, slavija= refers to Slavic nations. So please, maybe you should read a bit more about history of those parts, before you start criticizing others.
And just for the record, no, I'm not macedonian.

Simoon

>

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Andy
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(reth530-a033.otenet.gr)

  In Response to:
Simoon

  Responses to this Comment:
Simoon
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Thursday, October 14, 2004 (8:43 a.m.) 

Dear Simoon, I wasn’t trying to make a history lesson here. I was just trying to explain some things in simple terms to people that have no idea about history (e.g. American movie goers) and think that the today’s Macedonia (or as we should formally call it: F.Y.R.O.M. - Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia) is the ancestor from the “great” (as you call it) Macedonian Empire.

Second, what you say about languages doesn’t make sense. You say in Ancient Macedonia people spoke Ancient Greek while the language you are talking about is called Macedonian although it has nothing to do with Ancient Greek. (??) What is this Macedonian language after all? Does what you say make any sense? Isn’t more sensible saying that: it is a Slavic language that maybe some people now just like to call it Macedonian? When saying, “Slovenia has slovenian, Serbia serbian, Monte Negro slightly different Serbian etc its like saying Germany has German, Austria has Austrian and Part of Switzerland has Swiss German, or what ever and so on. Well that’s great difference isn’t it?

What I’m saying is really simple: Since this serious Artist, Gabriel Yared, decided he wanted to use some music and lyrics to fit the atmosphere of this English spoken (indeed) pop corn movie, he could at least have researched it a bit more! It would make much more sense using Greek, which even today is at least 50% the same as the language that Achilles, Paris, Helene or Hector spoke and even the language that Homers story “Iliad” was originally written in, for gods sake! If you can’t understand this simple thing you can go on calling the FYROM language “Macedonian” making the same mistake that people that don’t have a clue about history make.

And just for the record, no, I'm not Ancient Greek :P
Andy


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Simoon
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(ad13-m146.net.htnet.hr)

  In Response to:
Andy
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Thursday, October 14, 2004 (11:52 a.m.) 

> Dear Andy! Well, I'll not take this entire ' debate' as a provocation, and I'll just answer to a few things you clearly don't understand.
The fact that you are AGAIN questioning macedonian language ( as a language that existed before Yugoslavia) is really incredible. Please, do me a favor and stop with that clear ignorance. You don't have to be familiar with the history of Balkan, and the fact that you do know something is nice but please don't keep repeating this stupidity. Please! There is a GREAT difference between all the languages in former Yugoslavia. I mean, after 4 years of war on these parts and fighting for independence and a right to have your own language and to be free to use it ( and I KNOW what I'm talking about!! ) you say that " What is this Macedonian language after all ...it is a Slavic language that maybe some people now just like to call it Macedonian? " You have just eliminated more then 6 languages, as if they don't exist. Would you agree if I'd say that german and english are the same just because they belong to the same group of languages. I don't think so.
And that part about ancient greek ....I will not elaborate because you didn't understand it at all. In the end I'd like to quote you:" calling the FYROM language “Macedonian” making the same mistake that people that don’t have a clue about history make." - please DO YOUR homework before you ALLOW yourself to say things like this. Or at least, you could talk to ANY Europe historian ( I don't know what exactly you learn in America about world history ) next time.
Oh yes, my sister speaks greek, the old greek, and it's not sooo easy to learn nor so similar to the modern one.
I know you're not Ancient Greek, you are clearly NOT Macedonian, nor European, actually I think you're American. But that wasn't so hard to guess.
If you're interested in history of these parts you can always contact me My e-mail is here. But please, don't make this into some private war.
Simoon

And yes, I appreciate you not trying to make a history lesson here.



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equinox
(chello080108250170.17.14.univie.t
eleweb.at)

  In Response to:
Simoon

  Responses to this Comment:
Simoon
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Wednesday, January 5, 2005 (8:28 a.m.) 

> I agree with you about certain things: f.e. in those times they spoke
> ancient greek, not macedonian, but as far as I know the entire movie is on
> english, the language that wasn't used there like EVER, so singing on one
> of the languages from the parts that did belong to the ancient Greece
> doesn't seem so strange. Second thing: except the End credit song, music,
> especially Sparta, Hector's Funeral and the Mourning women resembles the
> ancient greek music, believe it or not some of the folk music from all the
> countries that once were part of the ancient empires like Greece or the
> great macedonian empire still sounds like that. Wonder WHY???
And the
> last thing: there is no language and was never ever a language called
> YUGOSLAVIAN!!!!!!! Yugoslavia was the country that had 6 republics , and
> one of them was Macedonia and people there spoke and still speak
> macedonian! And they spoke it even during the osmanic occupation, and I'm
> sure you know how long that lasted! About languages: Slovenia has
> slovenian, Serbia serbian, Monte Negro slightly different serbian, Croatia
> croatian, and finally Bosnia and Herzegowina croatian-serbian. I'm not
> going to elaborate for how long they have been using them, because it will
> take too much of my time.
"Slavic" refers to a bigger group
> of languages.
And by the way, the name Yugoslavia ( Jugoslavija )
> means jug=south, slavija= refers to Slavic nations. So please, maybe you
> should read a bit more about history of those parts, before you start
> criticizing others.
And just for the record, no, I'm not macedonian.

> Simoon

There are 6 languages from former Yugoslavia. Trust me because I live there. Those are: serbian, croatian, bosnian, slovenian, macedonian and motenegrin. Of the mentioned I speak bosnian, and when I try, I can be perfectly fluent in montenegrin, serbian and croatian. The most distingushed of all are slovenian and macedonian which are different to the rest like german is to dutch or norwegian, or jewish to arabian language. They have some distant simmilarities, but that is all. I live in Montenegro (I don´t speak it´s language though, which doesn´t mean I don´t know it) but I can´t understand or speak macedonian or slovenian although my language too comes from slavic group of languages. Russian is also alsvic but I can´t speak it.
Macedonian is not the same as ancient macedonian. It has nothing to do whith it, because it is slavic. Ancient macedonian was spoken by people who lived in Macedonia before the arrival of Slavs. It was simmilar to greek. Comparing ancient macedonian and modern macedonian is like comparing american english and language spoken by native Americans.

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Simoon
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(83-131-66-147.adsl.net.t-com.hr)

  In Response to:
equinox
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Saturday, January 8, 2005 (5:31 a.m.) 

Zbilja?
s obzirom da americka raja stavlja u isti kos sve slavenske jezike, nisam bas zeljela ici u detalje , jer sam i ovako poprilicno poludila objasnjavajuci stvari koje bi trebale biti jasne kao dan.
U svakom slucaju, posto sam ja iz Bosne, ne treba mi dodatna lekcija iz moje vlastite povijesti. Ali Andyju ne bi bila na odmet.
Simoon


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Ivor Davies
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(194.164.243.105)

  In Response to:
Andy Dufresne

  Responses to this Comment:
Danny
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Tuesday, March 21, 2006 (4:53 a.m.) 

This Tanja Tzarovska singer is really
> good and well done to Yared for using her in the score and all. The thing
> is however that it is quite historically wrong, using Slavic singing for a
> movie about Greek battles.

Hi Andy et al,

Tanja is Macedonian but from the 'Bulgarian' bit. The whole question of where or what Macedonia is today is a complex one that goes back only to last century when the Balkan borders were defined by the West - we really DONT we to get involved in that!

To go back to the times of Troy is to go back to when the area we now know today as Bulgaria was then known as Thrace. Famous Thracians include Spartacus and Orpheus. What one can say is that there is something rather unusual about the way they sing in Bulgaria - listen to Le Mystere des Voix Bulgare (big Bulgarian Choir) or the Trio Bulgraka (who sang on Kate Bush albums). The style sung particularly in the Thracian Plain part of Bulgaria, around Stara Zagora, can be heard on Yared's soundtrack vocal parts by Dessislava Stefanova - check out Hector's Funeral.

The origins of the Bulgarian vocal style may lie in the Altai Mountains where the horse people there have their own style of throat singing - listen to any Tuvan throat singing - and there has already been musical collabourations between Bulgarian and Tuvan singers. Many of the people who now live in what we call Bulgaria originally came from the Altai's, Khan Asperuh son of Khan Khubrat was the founder of the Bulgarian people.

So Yared was looking for an ancient and 'far away' sound, looking for a way of singing that has been forgotten, and I reckon he found it with the collabourations with Dessislava and Tanja. I work with Dessi on Bulgarian projects in A Spell In Time (see link) and Dessi is also leader of the London Bulgarian Choir. I can ask her exactly what Yared's influences and ideas were if anyone's interested!

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Danny
<Send E-Mail>
(212.85.15.116)

  In Response to:
Ivor Davies
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Tuesday, June 20, 2006 (4:48 a.m.) 

Ivor!

Dessi's word will be final. You must send her to the trouble spots of former Yugoslavia and other places where the people bicker over this and that, not realising that there are people in our grey dank climes who'd sell their soul to live in their beautiful country and all they can do is fight over it and kill each other over a silly name or a historical fracas.

Put Dessi on a distant hill and let her sing to everyone about the joys of life and planting peppers........

> Hi Andy et al,

> Tanja is Macedonian but from the 'Bulgarian' bit. The whole question of
> where or what Macedonia is today is a complex one that goes back only to
> last century when the Balkan borders were defined by the West - we really
> DONT we to get involved in that!

> To go back to the times of Troy is to go back to when the area we now know
> today as Bulgaria was then known as Thrace. Famous Thracians include
> Spartacus and Orpheus. What one can say is that there is something rather
> unusual about the way they sing in Bulgaria - listen to Le Mystere des
> Voix Bulgare (big Bulgarian Choir) or the Trio Bulgraka (who sang on Kate
> Bush albums). The style sung particularly in the Thracian Plain part of
> Bulgaria, around Stara Zagora, can be heard on Yared's soundtrack vocal
> parts by Dessislava Stefanova - check out Hector's Funeral.

> The origins of the Bulgarian vocal style may lie in the Altai Mountains
> where the horse people there have their own style of throat singing -
> listen to any Tuvan throat singing - and there has already been musical
> collabourations between Bulgarian and Tuvan singers. Many of the people
> who now live in what we call Bulgaria originally came from the Altai's,
> Khan Asperuh son of Khan Khubrat was the founder of the Bulgarian people.

> So Yared was looking for an ancient and 'far away' sound, looking for a
> way of singing that has been forgotten, and I reckon he found it with the
> collabourations with Dessislava and Tanja. I work with Dessi on Bulgarian
> projects in A Spell In Time (see link) and Dessi is also leader of the
> London Bulgarian Choir. I can ask her exactly what Yared's influences and
> ideas were if anyone's interested!


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chris
<Send E-Mail>
(cpe-144-137-99-174.nsw.bigpond.ne
t.au)

  In Response to:
Andy Dufresne
Re: Macedonian Singers? History Mistakes!   Sunday, March 26, 2006 (11:34 p.m.) 

wat u wrote was no true. y dont u look up his and checkthat alexander the great spoke macedonian he fought for macedonia and still to this day is macedonian. Where a free country so why dont u get over it and move on macedonia is and forever will be macedonian:D

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