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Comments about the soundtrack for Windtalkers (James Horner)
I don't understand

Dan Sartori
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  Responses to this Comment:
Sean Raduechel
Vestard
ChrisAfonso
Matt
Lokutus
Levente Benedek
I don't understand   Sunday, May 12, 2002 (2:58 p.m.) 

The reviewer talks about the possibility of Windtalkers being a strong four-star score if he had included more ethnic native American elements. Quick question: why is it that we limit Horner and other composers to four stars while we just assume that every Williams score is going to be five unless some reason arises for it to be taken down? That really bothers me. It seems that people on this site have a very obvious bias to John Williams's music and don't really consider it possible that anyone else can create a masterpiece. I mean, think about it, every Star Wars soundtrack will be given 5 stars, no matter how much of a confused jumble of themes it is. I guarantee you Episode 3 will get 5 stars, even if it sounds like it was written by my little sister, simply because John Williams name is on the CD. I don't hate John Williams, I just hate how many breaks we give him. It seems very unfair to me.

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Sean Raduechel
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

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Dan Sartori
Re: question   Sunday, May 12, 2002 (6:58 p.m.) 

> The reviewer talks about the possibility of Windtalkers being a strong
> four-star score if he had included more ethnic native American elements.
> Quick question: why is it that we limit Horner and other composers to four
> stars while we just assume that every Williams score is going to be five
> unless some reason arises for it to be taken down? That really bothers me.
> It seems that people on this site have a very obvious bias to John
> Williams's music and don't really consider it possible that anyone else
> can create a masterpiece. I mean, think about it, every Star Wars
> soundtrack will be given 5 stars, no matter how much of a confused jumble
> of themes it is. I guarantee you Episode 3 will get 5 stars, even if it
> sounds like it was written by my little sister, simply because John
> Williams name is on the CD. I don't hate John Williams, I just hate how
> many breaks we give him. It seems very unfair to me.

I think that it should also be recognized that this is not a solely Native American story. It takes place during world war two. This is essentially the issue facing Horner, how does one compose for a war movie and successfully institute a native american feel. Now, I have yet to hear the whole score, so I cannot assess it fully, but my point is that we should not reason that this score is not worth the full four stars just because it isn't completely native american.

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Dan Sartori
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Sean Raduechel

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Trial lawyer
LCM
Good point   Monday, May 13, 2002 (8:28 a.m.) 

> I think that it should also be recognized that this is not a solely Native
> American story. It takes place during world war two. This is essentially
> the issue facing Horner, how does one compose for a war movie and
> successfully institute a native american feel. Now, I have yet to hear the
> whole score, so I cannot assess it fully, but my point is that we should
> not reason that this score is not worth the full four stars just because
> it isn't completely native american.

That's a good point!

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Trial lawyer
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Dan Sartori

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ethan[imf]
The reviewer knows what is best ??   Monday, May 13, 2002 (10:46 a.m.) 

Why should there be extensive NA themes in this film simply b/c of that element? That's like saying Jurassic Park soundtrack was inferior b/c it had few "Jaws-like danger" cues(it was more majestic and elegant than anything else). The review was very subjective.

Go Horner!

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ethan[imf]
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Trial lawyer
Re: The reviewer knows what is best ??   Monday, May 13, 2002 (12:06 p.m.) 

> Go Horner!

i can only agree ...


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LCM
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

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Pawel Stroinski
Horner versus Williams   Saturday, June 8, 2002 (1:22 p.m.) 

If you compare John's earlier stuff before "Towering Inferno" and the ratings on his scores to James's earlier stuff from when he first started you can tell that James Horner got into his prime in score composing a lot faster then John did. But the only reason John has more 5 star ratings is because he has been in the business longer. When John was the age were Honer is at now he wasn't nearly as popular as James is. If you compare "Legends of the Fall" to "The Reivers" you will be able to see that James is the better composer. Almost No one knows about John's earlier stuff but Im sure James Honer scores will be remembered in history. When James Horner becomes the age that John is at right now Im sure that his scores will surpass anything John could ever do. That's why you can't relate John to James because of the time gap. If you wait another 25 years then James will be at the stage where John is at now. Plus James Horner music has 10 times more depth then John. JAMES HORNER ALL THE WAY!!!!

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Pawel Stroinski
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LCM
Re: they all sound the same   Wednesday, June 19, 2002 (9:16 a.m.) 

> If you compare John's earlier stuff before "Towering Inferno"
> and the ratings on his scores to James's earlier stuff from when he first
> started you can tell that James Horner got into his prime in score
> composing a lot faster then John did. But the only reason John has more 5
> star ratings is because he has been in the business longer. When John was
> the age were Honer is at now he wasn't nearly as popular as James is. If
> you compare "Legends of the Fall" to "The Reivers" you
> will be able to see that James is the better composer. Almost No one knows
> about John's earlier stuff but Im sure James Honer scores will be
> remembered in history. When James Horner becomes the age that John is at
> right now Im sure that his scores will surpass anything John could ever
> do. That's why you can't relate John to James because of the time gap. If
> you wait another 25 years then James will be at the stage where John is at
> now. Plus James Horner music has 10 times more depth then John. JAMES
> HORNER ALL THE WAY!!!!

They will be remembered, because all sound the same. The only repetitive score of Horner I like is Enemy At The Gates.

I don't think also that Pelican's Brief would be remembered. It is the worst score composed by Horner, not to mention anybody in scoring community. I think it could be written by Horner's CAT walking on the piano!

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Vestard
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Dan Sartori

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Erik Woods
Korben
Agreed 100 percent! And I'm NOT a JW fan...   Monday, May 13, 2002 (4:43 a.m.) 

...and I know that we're by the minority! To my mind-Horner's much better than JW!

Vestard

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Erik Woods
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ethan[imf]
Hilarious!!!   Monday, May 13, 2002 (8:57 a.m.) 

> ...and I know that we're by the minority! To my mind-Horner's much better
> than JW!

> Vestard

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Holy cow... that's funny. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Can't stop laughing... whew... oh my stomach hurts... breathe... wow... I needed that one this morning. Best joke ever! I'm forwarding this message to everyone I know because I'm sure they need a good laugh this early on a Monday morning.

Thanks Vestard for that one!

Erik


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ethan[imf]
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Erik Woods

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Erik Woods
Re: Hilarious!!!   Monday, May 13, 2002 (12:06 p.m.) 

i think your silly post says all ...


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Erik Woods
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ethan[imf]

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ethan[imf]
Re: Hilarious!!!   Monday, May 13, 2002 (1:08 p.m.) 

> i think your silly post says all ...

Yes, it does... Vestard's post was pretty funny. From your other posts, Ethan, it looks like your a Horner fan too... hell, I was a Horner fan and I'm still a fan of his earlier work... but if you look at the careers of these two composers (Williams and Horner) then it should be painfully obvious that Horner doesn't even belong in the same category as Williams... or any other composer. Horner over the years has become a great arranger and orchestrator of his own and other people works. But to call him a composer would be factually incorrect. He doesn't compose anything. If anything, he is a great person to have to temp your film. Sure, his music does what film music should do and that is to enhance the visuals but the problem that most people have including myself is that he doesn't write any new or original music anymore... O.K. maybe a cue here and there will be different then anything he has composed before but his music and themes still sound exactly the same as his previous works. You can't deny this.

So, is Horner a good composer... No!

Does he understand film music and it's purpose....Yes! I don't deny that!

But the argument is... is Horner and better composer then Williams. The answer is No.

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ethan[imf]
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Randall
Re: Hilarious!!!   Tuesday, May 14, 2002 (4:47 a.m.) 

well, that's your opinion, and i don't want to criticize it.
i like williams a lot, but for me, horner is the better composer and has an incredible sense for music. well, i agree that he didn't create anything special in the last four\five years. i hope he'll find back to his great talent.

i think there's no use to continue this discussion. everyone has his own taste and opinion, so ... ok.



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Randall
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ethan[imf]

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Pawel Stroinski
Re: Hilarious!!!   Friday, July 19, 2002 (9:06 a.m.) 

I agree

I think Horner is better than John Williams,
Williams made a few scores that i can hear in my mind anywhere i'am ( i mean clasical All StarWars, Indiana Jones and Jurrasic Park ) The rest i can't remember.

In case of Horner we've got many great eg: Braveheart, Titanic, Mask of Zorro, Deep Impact, Apollo 13, Beautiful mind, Willow and many others

P.S I think that everybody likes their favourite composers, but I like scores and don't care about the composer that's why i prefer Horner.
I also love Zimmer, evherything Goldsmith did, Trevor Rabin, Gregson-Williams & Powell together scores, Badelt, all Thomas Newman.

BTW. Williams Score for Private Ryan sucks, So great movie so bad music, I was dissapointed.

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Pawel Stroinski
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Re: Hilarious!!!   Tuesday, August 27, 2002 (3:35 a.m.) 

> I agree

> I think Horner is better than John Williams,
Williams made a few
> scores that i can hear in my mind anywhere i'am ( i mean clasical All
> StarWars, Indiana Jones and Jurrasic Park ) The rest i can't remember.

> In case of Horner we've got many great eg: Braveheart, Titanic, Mask of
> Zorro, Deep Impact, Apollo 13, Beautiful mind, Willow and many others

> P.S I think that everybody likes their favourite composers, but I like
> scores and don't care about the composer that's why i prefer Horner.
I
> also love Zimmer, evherything Goldsmith did, Trevor Rabin,
> Gregson-Williams & Powell together scores, Badelt, all Thomas Newman.

> BTW. Williams Score for Private Ryan sucks, So great movie so bad music, I
> was dissapointed.

I agree that Horner's better than JW. His scores can evoke emotions, Williams recent scores can't. Although I love Schindler's List.


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Korben
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Vestard
Re: Agreed 100 percent! And I'm NOT a JW fan...   Monday, July 15, 2002 (10:41 a.m.) 

I think Horner is better than Williams in some ways and in some ways Williams is better than Horner. But I do admit that I listen to James Horner more than JW.

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ChrisAfonso
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Dan Sartori
Re: I don't understand   Monday, May 13, 2002 (2:14 p.m.) 

> The reviewer talks about the possibility of Windtalkers being a strong
> four-star score if he had included more ethnic native American elements.
> Quick question: why is it that we limit Horner and other composers to four
> stars while we just assume that every Williams score is going to be five
> unless some reason arises for it to be taken down? That really bothers me.
> It seems that people on this site have a very obvious bias to John
> Williams's music and don't really consider it possible that anyone else
> can create a masterpiece. I mean, think about it, every Star Wars
> soundtrack will be given 5 stars, no matter how much of a confused jumble
> of themes it is. I guarantee you Episode 3 will get 5 stars, even if it
> sounds like it was written by my little sister, simply because John
> Williams name is on the CD. I don't hate John Williams, I just hate how
> many breaks we give him. It seems very unfair to me.

Let's not forget Saving Private Ryan, Nixon, and the likes

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Matt
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

  Responses to this Comment:
Dan Sartori
Sean Raduechel
Re: I don't understand   Monday, May 13, 2002 (6:34 p.m.) 

The reason we expect John Williams to produce five-star scores every time out is because of the enormous success he has had over the last thirty years. Maybe you do not like Williams's music as much as Horner's, that is your opinion, but like it or not that opinion is in the distinct minority. A three-star score from Williams is the exception rather than the rule, whereas it is the reverse for James Horner. Horner has composed some outstanding film scores, such as Star Trek II, Glory, The Mask of Zorro, Apollo 13, Braveheart...but the overwhelming majority of Horner's scores are rather average, merely functional scores which work for the film but not as well on CD. It is the opposite with John Williams; he's had some clunkers, such as Sleepers, Nixon, Heartbeeps...but by far his music is vastly superior to Horner's (I can't even fathom Horner writing music as bombastic and thematically rich as Star Wars, or as heart-wrenching as the theme from ET, or as threatening as Jaws, or on a lighter note as purely Christmasy as Home Alone). And don't give me any arguments about how the Titanic soundtrack has sold more copies than Star Wars: take that Celine Dion song off of it and it wouldn't have sold half as well.

So it's not that we give "breaks" to John Williams and are unduly harsh on Horner; this is what these two composers' histories and accomplishments to date have brought us to expect. I know there is a lot of Horner-bashing out there, and maybe some of it is a bit extreme, but nobody can argue with the fact that Horner DOES borrow substantially from himself from score to score. No matter how extreme the bashing is, there is always a basis in truth. John Williams is not immune to this, he'll write something similar-sounding to a previous work (such as the love theme from Attack of the Clones sounding similar to the theme from Hook). But nobody, anywhere, will mistake Across the Stars from Flight to Neverland. They may have roughly the same sequence of notes, but they have their own distinct sound and flavor to them. Horner's music is MUCH less unique, and can readily be interchanged from one film to the next.

So please don't say that visitors to this site have a "bias" towards John Williams. There is no getting around the fact (and this is a FACT, not an opinion), that John Williams's music is substantially more popular than James Horner's. Williams's music is popular for a reason, beyond simply the success of the movie for which it was written...IT IS GREAT MUSIC.

To provide perhaps a better analogy:

John Williams = New York Yankees

James Horner = Boston Red Sox

Sure, both are very good baseball teams, but when the World Series comes around, who would you expect to win?

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Dan Sartori
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Matt

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Matt
Roman Dlouhý
Re: I don't understand   Wednesday, May 15, 2002 (9:31 a.m.) 

> The reason we expect John Williams to produce five-star scores every time
> out is because of the enormous success he has had over the last thirty
> years. Maybe you do not like Williams's music as much as Horner's, that is
> your opinion, but like it or not that opinion is in the distinct minority.

I never said that I didn't like Williams's music as much as Horner's. In fact, if you read my profile on the scoreboard forum, many of my favorite soundtracks are of Williams (E.T., Jurassic Park, etc.), and my top ten list includes just as many Williams soundtracks as it does Horner soundtracks. I just don't write in favor of Williams on this site so much because there is already an abundance of people who do that.

> A three-star score from Williams is the exception rather than the rule,
> whereas it is the reverse for James Horner.

Not really. There may be more three star scores on this site for Horner because of the John Williams bias, but other people don't necessarily hold the same opinion. Part of the reasoon why we hear so much about John Williams's really good scores is the simple fact that his career has spanned almost 35 years, whereas Horner has only been around for 15 years. But you have to realize that John Williams has had his fair share of clunkers. He hasn't really had a good score since The Patriot, and Harry Potter was a disappointment.

Horner has composed some outstanding film scores, such as Star Trek II, Glory, The Mask of Zorro, Apollo 13, Braveheart...but the overwhelming majority of Horner's scores
> are rather average, merely functional scores which work for the film but
> not as well on CD.

I don't think this is true at all. It is easy to fall into the trap of comparing each of Horner's scores to each other, but to truly appreciate each score for what it is it is imperative to look at it as an individual entity. If you did all the comparing of Williams scores that you do with Horner scores, you would find that THEY would sound much the same too. I can point to several specific areas where Williams is blatantly using "self-plagiarism", as you Horner-bashers so like to call it. And what are these "merely functional scores"?

It is the opposite with John Williams; he's had some
> clunkers, such as Sleepers, Nixon, Heartbeeps...but by far his music is
> vastly superior to Horner's

This is your opinion, not a fact.

(I can't even fathom Horner writing music as
> bombastic and thematically rich as Star Wars, or as heart-wrenching as the
> theme from ET, or as threatening as Jaws, or on a lighter note as purely
> Christmasy as Home Alone).

I will tackle each of your assertions individually.
bombastic and thematically rich - This is Williams's style. It doesn't necessarily mean that his music is better. Williams is the king of the bombastic and thematic style (which, by the way, is not original - it's a direct takeoff of how Wagner wrote) whereas Horner is the king of the subdued and developed theme. Just as Horner's bombasticity looks weak compared to Williams, so also Williams attempts at subdued themes suck when you compare them to Horner's masterpieces.

heart-wrenching - This again has to do with the different styles. Williams's method of being heart-wrenching is shooting walls of sound at you (which is not a bad thing, just the way he chooses to do it). However, I prefer Horner's method of keeping everything quiet. I just think that a whisper is often much more powerful than a shout. If you prefer Williams's style, that's your choice, but please don't flaunt it as evidence that Williams is better. This is just plain not true.

threatening - Have you heard the score for Jade?

lighter tone - The Land Before Time is quite light-hearted at some parts, and is infinitely better music than Home Alone.

And don't give me any arguments about how the
> Titanic soundtrack has sold more copies than Star Wars: take that Celine
> Dion song off of it and it wouldn't have sold half as well.

I wasn't going to say anything like that. You could make the same argument about the Lord of the Rings: that if you took Enya off it wouldn't have sold half as well - but that really has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the score (as evidenced by Howard Shore's masterpiece).

> So it's not that we give "breaks" to John Williams and are
> unduly harsh on Horner; this is what these two composers' histories and
> accomplishments to date have brought us to expect.

Much of the reason that Williams has a greater core of excellent scores is that his career has been more than twice as long as Horner's.

I know there is a lot
> of Horner-bashing out there, and maybe some of it is a bit extreme, but
> nobody can argue with the fact that Horner DOES borrow substantially from
> himself from score to score.

So does Williams. Even though I agree that Horner does it more.

No matter how extreme the bashing is, there
> is always a basis in truth. John Williams is not immune to this, he'll
> write something similar-sounding to a previous work (such as the love
> theme from Attack of the Clones sounding similar to the theme from Hook).
> But nobody, anywhere, will mistake Across the Stars from Flight to
> Neverland. They may have roughly the same sequence of notes, but they have
> their own distinct sound and flavor to them. Horner's music is MUCH less
> unique, and can readily be interchanged from one film to the next.

I disagree. Show me how Glory sounds like Braveheart, and how that detracts from the effectiveness of either score. Horner's themes are much more developed than Williams's, and Horner varies his instrumentation more effectively.

> So please don't say that visitors to this site have a "bias"
> towards John Williams. There is no getting around the fact (and this is a
> FACT, not an opinion), that John Williams's music is substantially more
> popular than James Horner's.

This is true, but are the reasons for this good?

Williams's music is popular for a reason,
> beyond simply the success of the movie for which it was written...IT IS
> GREAT MUSIC.

So is Horner's.

> To provide perhaps a better analogy:

> John Williams = New York Yankees

> James Horner = Boston Red Sox

> Sure, both are very good baseball teams, but when the World Series comes
> around, who would you expect to win?

Nice analogy. Doesn't change my opinion.

You're seeing John Williams's music through rose-colored glasses, just as many other people see it. It's very good, don't get me wrong. I adore John Williams's style, but when I need to listen to something more subdued, I'm going to grab some Horner or Hans Zimmer scores, not Williams. Williams is better at his particular style of writing, but his music is NOT necessarily all-around better than any other composer. He is more popular because of two basic reasons: he has scored films that have become popular or have been landmarks in the film industry (like Schindler's List), and he has had a longer career than most other composers.

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Matt
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

  Responses to this Comment:
Dan Sartori
Re: I don't understand   Wednesday, May 15, 2002 (1:23 p.m.) 

You make some very good points here, and I really can't shoot any of them out of the sky (not that I would to). I suppose we are just on the opposite sides of the fence here; we both like Williams and Horner, but we just like one better than the other, that's all.

It is funny, when you think about it; websites like these would make for fascinating psychological studies. Why in the world do people get so bent out of shape when somebody disagrees with their opinion? I think honest, thought-provoking dialogue is good, but some people here just will not listen to anything they remotely disagree with. As it happens, I DO like Horner's music, some of it very much so, but my opinion is that John Williams is the better composer of the two. That's all. I only felt the need to reply to your original post because of the whole "bias" comment (which I still disagree with). I suppose I got a little carried away, and maybe came off a little arrogant, and if that is the case I apologize.

Oh well. I suppose we could go on and on like this forever. Thanks for the discussion, anyway, right now I'm going to listen to some Braveheart.

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Dan Sartori
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Matt
Re: I don't understand   Wednesday, May 15, 2002 (8:25 p.m.) 

> You make some very good points here, and I really can't shoot any of them
> out of the sky (not that I would to). I suppose we are just on the
> opposite sides of the fence here; we both like Williams and Horner, but we
> just like one better than the other, that's all.

> It is funny, when you think about it; websites like these would make for
> fascinating psychological studies. Why in the world do people get so bent
> out of shape when somebody disagrees with their opinion? I think honest,
> thought-provoking dialogue is good, but some people here just will not
> listen to anything they remotely disagree with. As it happens, I DO like
> Horner's music, some of it very much so, but my opinion is that John
> Williams is the better composer of the two. That's all. I only felt the
> need to reply to your original post because of the whole "bias"
> comment (which I still disagree with). I suppose I got a little carried
> away, and maybe came off a little arrogant, and if that is the case I
> apologize.

> Oh well. I suppose we could go on and on like this forever. Thanks for the
> discussion, anyway, right now I'm going to listen to some Braveheart.

No need to apologize. I wasn't offended. I love these kinds of discussions, they make me think a lot about why I hold certain opinions that I do. I was just giving some reasons for my side. I'm sorry if I came off too strong too, I didn't mean to be rude. Thanks for being so understanding and generally mature about everything; it really makes for interesting discussions. It does seem funny that with all the injustice in our world, there are people out there who seriously get mad over something as trivial as a movie soundtrack! I appreciate you!

Respectfully,
Dan


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Roman Dlouhý
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Dan Sartori
Re: The Land Before Time   Friday, June 14, 2002 (3:35 a.m.) 

> lighter tone - The Land Before Time is quite light-hearted at some parts, and
> is infinitely better music than Home Alone.

I wouldn't have had a reason to come in if you hadn't mentioned THE LAND BEFORE TIME and its superiority to HOME ALONE. I have bought this score, TLBT, after having read favorable reviews plus it was an over-stock item in a nearby shop sold for laughable price so I bought it and after having listened to it I was somewhat disappointed. So much praise for what has nothing to impress me in. I don't bash the score BECAUSE I can see many like it so there must be something about it. I just find it not so interesting to me. I just want to say that this is one of the reasons I don't listen to James Horner much outside of LOTF and BRAVEHEART that I can't seem to get enough of (esp. LOTF). But it's okay. The other reason may seem stupid, and as it were it likely is stupid of me, but stealing one of major Schindler's List (the best music I've heard regardless of genre) motifs only to give him such undignified role in Enemy at the Gates has put an unbearable fence between me and James' scores and to me it seems like revenge by Horner rather than courteous citation. Punish me for this if you wish, but please keep in mind that this is not my major problem with Horner's scores.

List of JH's scores I own and how I value them:
Jumanji **
The Land Before Time **
The Mask of Zorro ***
Titanic I & II **** & ***
Braveheart I & II **** & **
Devil's Own **
Bicentennial Man ***
Aliens (original & expanded) *** (both)
Legends of the Fall *****
Beautiful Mind **



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Sean Raduechel
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  In Response to:
Matt
Filmscore's shadow: the greatest in Hollywood   Thursday, June 20, 2002 (6:04 p.m.) 

Over the past week I have come to the bold and decisive conclusion of who the greatest composer in film music is (note it is not my now determined favorite composer Bruce Broughton, he hasn't composed enough to be decisive with). It is not Horner, his short career and carbon copy tendency cancel him out. It is not Zimmer, since his career has not left much room to see how original he remains, although like Horner, he is effective. And no, it is not Williams, whose recent scores have begun to show that age is catching up and begin to lack any really original material (most recent exception being Patriot). Actually, after years of careful considerations and comparisons, I have determined the greatest living composer to be the shadow of the film music world (since his abilities are never really recognized), Jerry Goldsmith. My basis for this decision included many points. One, he is older and has had a longer career than even Williams and, in addition, is still creating works that sound quite distinct. Two, his style the most morphable one on the market, going from quaint and subdued like Rudy, to great and adventurous like the Mummy, from grand and bombastic like First Knight, to dark and ominous like the Omen. He even will combine multiple styles and feelings like in the River Wild. Finally, he seems always capable of playing the correct emotions on screen to the overwhelming point that most consider more characteristic of Williams or Horner.

quote: "I'm certain Jerry Goldsmith is envious of John Williams Career, Williams is envious of Stravinsky, and Stravinsky is envious of God." - Christopher Young, Film Composer, from "the Score".

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Lokutus
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

  Responses to this Comment:
Bubba
Bindner
Roman Dlouhy´
Re: I don't understand   Sunday, May 19, 2002 (10:09 a.m.) 

> The reviewer talks about the possibility of Windtalkers being a strong
> four-star score if he had included more ethnic native American elements.
> Quick question: why is it that we limit Horner and other composers to four
> stars while we just assume that every Williams score is going to be five
> unless some reason arises for it to be taken down? That really bothers me.
> It seems that people on this site have a very obvious bias to John
> Williams's music and don't really consider it possible that anyone else
> can create a masterpiece. I mean, think about it, every Star Wars
> soundtrack will be given 5 stars, no matter how much of a confused jumble
> of themes it is. I guarantee you Episode 3 will get 5 stars, even if it
> sounds like it was written by my little sister, simply because John
> Williams name is on the CD. I don't hate John Williams, I just hate how
> many breaks we give him. It seems very unfair to me.

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THIS! EVERY WILLIAMS´S SCORES IS OVERVALUED. IF HARRY POTTER WOULD BE WRITTEN FOR EXAMPLE BY JAMES HORNER OR ANYONE ELSE, IT IS NEARLY SURE, THAT IT WOULD GET ** AND WHEN IT IS COMPOSED BY WILLIAMS IT AUTHOMATICALY GET 2 STARS MORE THAN WAS QUALITY OF THE SCORE. SOME OTHER BRIEFS ARE: PATRIOT, AMISTAD, SW (ALL), JAWS AND VERY MUCH MORE....

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Bubba
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  In Response to:
Lokutus
Try something new   Sunday, May 19, 2002 (3:20 p.m.) 

You know I just sit here and laugh at how much everybody bitches about this crap all the time. If there is a problem with the way that Christian or whoever writes an opinion on a score than maybe people should go and look up somebody elses opinion about a score. There is one site that shows absolutley no mercy towards Williams, Horner, Goldsmith, and everyone else maybe you guys should switch, it seems that Christian has a wild hair with his legality issues on Moulin Rouge. Especially when he decides to make a further ass out of himself by posting a letter that just asks him to make a small change to the page, excuse me, but how hard is that? Anyway its just a suggestion. Its something that people shouldn't be complaining about anyway, its a stupid opinion, everyone has them.

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Bindner
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t)

  In Response to:
Lokutus
Hey! Shut up, you two!   Thursday, May 30, 2002 (10:10 a.m.) 

John Williams make moosic fur Star Wars! Case closed!!!

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Roman Dlouhy´
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  In Response to:
Lokutus

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
Thomas W.
doltishness !   Friday, June 14, 2002 (2:47 a.m.) 

> I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THIS! EVERY WILLIAMS´S SCORES IS OVERVALUED. IF
> HARRY POTTER WOULD BE WRITTEN FOR EXAMPLE BY JAMES HORNER OR ANYONE ELSE,
> IT IS NEARLY SURE, THAT IT WOULD GET ** AND WHEN IT IS COMPOSED BY
> WILLIAMS IT AUTHOMATICALY GET 2 STARS MORE THAN WAS QUALITY OF THE SCORE.
> SOME OTHER BRIEFS ARE: PATRIOT, AMISTAD, SW (ALL), JAWS AND VERY MUCH
> MORE....

Although I highly respect your opinion, I dare say you are absolutely wrong about this matter. I haven't heard this discussed score to WINDTALKERS but I have, alas, bought and heard BEAUTIFUL MIND by James Horner, for instance, and saw it at couple of sites evaluated with no less than four stars on five-star scales. Although BM score, in my opinion based on what I like, is a 2-star score at best if only for the stolen, though very nice, piano part, just because it is Horner to whom the Milky Way keeps forgiving carbon-copy style of composing and recent thematic threadbareness and of whom it's thought as constantly being unjustly aggrieved in the thought-up EMPIRE of Williams' scores, everything this guy does has recently been getting positive reviews for music that's been being rehashed so many times before that it became condoned on everyday basis.

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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Roman Dlouhy´
Re: doltishness !   Sunday, September 1, 2002 (4:31 a.m.) 

> Although I highly respect your opinion, I dare say you are absolutely
> wrong about this matter. I haven't heard this discussed score to
> WINDTALKERS but I have, alas, bought and heard BEAUTIFUL MIND by James
> Horner, for instance, and saw it at couple of sites evaluated with no less
> than four stars on five-star scales. Although BM score, in my opinion
> based on what I like, is a 2-star score at best if only for the stolen,
> though very nice, piano part, just because it is Horner to whom the Milky
> Way keeps forgiving carbon-copy style of composing and recent thematic
> threadbareness and of whom it's thought as constantly being unjustly
> aggrieved in the thought-up EMPIRE of Williams' scores, everything this
> guy does has recently been getting positive reviews for music that's been
> being rehashed so many times before that it became condoned on everyday
> basis.

Yes, yes. Williams is a god, the rest is nobody. I think too Williams is overrated. It's not that he started to rip off from himself, so does everybody (Hans Zimmer very rare, but still).

His music is anachronic today. Yes, it's a good word - anachronic. He invented a pompous style (it is original, but so is Zimmer's) using orchestra's abilities to its most. I respect it, but I'm full of that. Williams' scores tire me. I don't have that problem with Horner, Zimmer, Goldsmith or anybody else.

I don't remember any Williams score that evoke any emotions from me, except of course the ingenious Schindler's List. I repeat it always when i talk about Williams:

Too many embellishments, too little melody.

And listen to Windtalkers. It's a great score.

Pawel


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Thomas W.
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  In Response to:
Roman Dlouhy´

  Responses to this Comment:
Matt
John Williams and Media Ventures   Sunday, September 7, 2003 (1:59 p.m.) 

This is exactly what I get so mad about day after day after day.
John Williams is TOTALLY overrated!! The problem is that John Williams
belongs to the "normal" composers and the composers of Media Ventures
including HZ don't.
How can such a monumental score like Zimmer's and Gerrard's Gladiator receive *** ?? That's bloody insane!!
Just compare that soundtrack with Star Wars Episode I which was one of the worst
Williams scores. Doesn't this seem a little strange? ***** for that bunch of
crap and *** for Gladiator!!
I really don't care too much about James Horner...I had my share of his music (I played his Titanic on the piano for over three years now and listened to the score for at least five years).
Another good example is Williams' Amistad and Zimmer's Tears Of The Sun. While JW's score is just a poor version of what Hans Zimmer could've done with the project Tears Of The Sun has some great cues, very moving music and great vocals. And what do you get on this site?? **** for Amistad and *** for Tears Of The Sun.
And giving * to Pirates Of The Caribbean is just the result of bad journalism
and no feeling for music. It's certainly not the best soundtrack of all time
but it did not deserve anything below ****. I guess it's just hatred against
MV.
I must say the only scores of John Williams I really ENJOYED were Harry Potter
Home Alone and Schindler's List, in my opinion almost all the rest is just average.
Before discovering this board I thought I was alone with my opinion but greatfully I'm not and since the most of you seem to know much about movie scores I take you're opinions a lot more seriously than the ones from most of the journalists from this site that seem to have a contract with John Williams.

Keep up supporting Media Ventures (My favorite one: Harry Gregson-Williams)



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Matt
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  In Response to:
Thomas W.
Re: John Williams and Media Ventures   Thursday, January 15, 2004 (8:56 p.m.) 

I would completely agree with many of your opinions on john williams. I do believe that he is overrated and beyond his time. Has anyone noticed that he takes little pieces from each scores and just does variations on them in all his movies. It's ridiculous. I think Hans Zimmer is one of the most amazing composer's on the planet including klaus bedalt and so forth. These people are original. While it is difficult for someone as young as me to show the world what i can do and to break into the filmscoring industry i can only hope that one day hans can look at my mousic and point me in the right direction. By the way if anyone has any idea on how to get your music heard or recognized please email me at Marsboy2000@aol.com. But back to the point. John williams just needs to understand that just because he's the most saught for man in filmscoring doesn't make him good. He's had very few good scores that i can recall and even the ones that made him the most popular i don't like i.a. star wars. The simple fact people are afraid of change and most of all the future. How can you not say that the music from gladiator or pirates of the carribean or hannibal don't move you...their music is undeniably the best in film history and should be recognized for that...

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Levente Benedek
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  In Response to:
Dan Sartori

  Responses to this Comment:
Ferenc Hidvegi
Adam P.
How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Sunday, June 2, 2002 (10:53 a.m.) 

I also agree. There is our composer Hans Zimmer. He is a genuis for composing synthetisers, orchestra and choir together. Lot of people hate him because he makes something else. Did you noticed that Williams at the Academy Award made his own medley with three of his films. I also asked one of my friend's and he sad there are old composers who work in Hollywood for years. Than how James Horner get there? If he is there than where is Zimmer? We should also thank to him, for giving a chance such talented composers like: Trevor Rabin, Harry Gregson-Williams, Nick Glennie-Smith, John Powell, Heitor Pereira, Klaus Badelt, Mark Mancina, Martin Tillman. And dont forget Lisa Gerard. I think Zimmer is as good as Williams, and I risk that he is better sometimes.

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Ferenc Hidvegi
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  In Response to:
Levente Benedek

  Responses to this Comment:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Wednesday, June 19, 2002 (4:42 p.m.) 

Hans Zimmer's Media Ventures is a clone factory for film composers.(Hans Fett)

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Pawel Stroinski
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  In Response to:
Ferenc Hidvegi

  Responses to this Comment:
Ferenc Hidvegi
Ferenc Hidvegi
Ferenc Hidvegi
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Thursday, August 1, 2002 (4:45 a.m.) 

> Hans Zimmer's Media Ventures is a clone factory for film composers.(Hans
> Fett)

Why a clonefactory? I agree rhat some guys just can't quit some Zimmer's habits, but I think Zimmer found his successors: John Powell, Klaus Badelt and Harry Gregson-Williams. He's got many good soloists, which write additional music (guitarist Heitor Pereira and celloist Martin Tillman).

And who is Hans Fett?


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Ferenc Hidvegi
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Thursday, August 1, 2002 (8:59 a.m.) 

> Why a clonefactory? I agree rhat some guys just can't quit some Zimmer's
> habits, but I think Zimmer found his successors: John Powell, Klaus Badelt
> and Harry Gregson-Williams. He's got many good soloists, which write
> additional music (guitarist Heitor Pereira and celloist Martin Tillman).

> And who is Hans Fett?

I have great respect for Hans Zimmer he has written some great scores,Klaus Badlet reminds me a lot of James Horner like Time Machine which is very much original but with sections of the score I do hear Horner and some Zimmer.Hans Fett

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Ferenc Hidvegi
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Thursday, August 1, 2002 (9:01 a.m.) 

> Why a clonefactory? I agree rhat some guys just can't quit some Zimmer's
> habits, but I think Zimmer found his successors: John Powell, Klaus Badelt
> and Harry Gregson-Williams. He's got many good soloists, which write
> additional music (guitarist Heitor Pereira and celloist Martin Tillman).

> And who is Hans Fett? I have great respect for Hans Zimmer he has written some great scores,Klaus Badlet reminds me a lot of James Horner like Time Machine which is very much original but with sections of the score I do hear Horner and some Zimmer.Hans Fett



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Ferenc Hidvegi
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  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Thursday, August 1, 2002 (9:05 a.m.) 

> Why a clonefactory? I agree rhat some guys just can't quit some Zimmer's
> habits, but I think Zimmer found his successors: John Powell, Klaus Badelt
> and Harry Gregson-Williams. He's got many good soloists, which write
> additional music (guitarist Heitor Pereira and celloist Martin Tillman).

> And who is Hans Fett?I have great respect for Hans Zimmer he has written some great scores,Klaus Badlet reminds me a lot of James Horner like Time Machine which is very much original but with sections of the score I do hear Horner and some Zimmer.Hans Fett, Janga Fett The bounty hunter from Ep.2 and the model for you know the clone troopers.I look forward to hearing more of Klaus Badlet! I just don't care for Media Ventures.#



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Adam P.
(pcp02347484pcs.manass01.va.comcas
t.net)

  In Response to:
Levente Benedek
Re: How about Zimmer and Media Ventures...   Sunday, March 23, 2003 (7:17 p.m.) 

> I also agree. There is our composer Hans Zimmer. He is a genuis for
> composing synthetisers, orchestra and choir together. Lot of people hate
> him because he makes something else. Did you noticed that Williams at the
> Academy Award made his own medley with three of his films. I also asked
> one of my friend's and he sad there are old composers who work in
> Hollywood for years. Than how James Horner get there? If he is there than
> where is Zimmer? We should also thank to him, for giving a chance such
> talented composers like: Trevor Rabin, Harry Gregson-Williams, Nick
> Glennie-Smith, John Powell, Heitor Pereira, Klaus Badelt, Mark Mancina,
> Martin Tillman. And dont forget Lisa Gerard. I think Zimmer is as good as
> Williams, and I risk that he is better sometimes.

Zimmer IS better than Williams, and people won't give him five stars unless it's as good as Crimson Tide. That's unfair in most!!!!!!!!!! Zimmer is and always will be THE best!!!!!!

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