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Comments about the soundtrack for Star Wars: Attack of the Clones (John Williams)
Re-Used theme

John
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  Responses to this Comment:
The Ranter
Admiral Piett
Re-Used theme   Tuesday, May 21, 2002 (1:56 p.m.) 

Did anybody notice that the love theme from episode II is the same theme from the movie Hook? Why did John Williams do that, could he not find something more creative, or did he lack time to write the score??

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The Ranter
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  In Response to:
John

  Responses to this Comment:
clone 5
No!!   Tuesday, May 21, 2002 (6:13 p.m.) 

> Did anybody notice that the love theme from episode II is the same theme
> from the movie Hook? Why did John Williams do that, could he not find
> something more creative, or did he lack time to write the score??

It is NOT the Hook theme... Why the hell do people keep saying this ?????

Listen to the SW Main Title, then listen to the Love theme. You will find that this theme is, in fact, a brilliant variation on the Star Wars main theme(some call it Luke's theme but that's crap. The little wimp doesn't deserve his own theme).

If anything, the Hook theme is ripping off SW. I don't even find the theme's that similar anyway. Hook is in a major key, and the Love theme is in a minor.

The Ranter,

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clone 5
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  In Response to:
The Ranter

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
Re: No!!   Tuesday, May 21, 2002 (7:12 p.m.) 

> It is NOT the Hook theme... Why the hell do people keep saying this ?????

> Listen to the SW Main Title, then listen to the Love theme. You will find
> that this theme is, in fact, a brilliant variation on the Star Wars main
> theme(some call it Luke's theme but that's crap. The little wimp doesn't
> deserve his own theme).

> If anything, the Hook theme is ripping off SW. I don't even find the
> theme's that similar anyway. Hook is in a major key, and the Love theme is
> in a minor.

> The Ranter,

THANK YOU!!!!

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juju-bean
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  In Response to:
clone 5

  Responses to this Comment:
MSM
Re: No!!   Tuesday, May 21, 2002 (11:55 p.m.) 

> THANK YOU!!!!
Actually, I think the theme that people are comparing the love theme to is the hook theme heard in the beginning of the prologue, and that IS minor. Similar? Yes. The same? No. Furthermore, the main theme to star wars is normally presented in major. Although, like most scores written in leitmotif i think williams changes modes in the main theme/luke's theme within the context of the movie.

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MSM
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  In Response to:
juju-bean

  Responses to this Comment:
forlom
Re: No!!   Wednesday, May 22, 2002 (1:03 a.m.) 

Actually, I think the theme that people are comparing the love theme to is
> the hook theme heard in the beginning of the prologue, and that IS minor.
> Similar? Yes. The same? No. Furthermore, the main theme to star wars is
> normally presented in major. Although, like most scores written in
> leitmotif i think williams changes modes in the main theme/luke's theme
> within the context of the movie.

I don't get why people don't read messages that were already posted. The "Hook" resemblance has been discussed hundreds of times.
Yes, juju-bean is right, the Hook Prologue opening is in a minor key, namely b-minor.


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forlom
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  In Response to:
MSM

  Responses to this Comment:
Grand Admiral Thrawn
many think its the hook theme   Wednesday, May 22, 2002 (8:50 p.m.) 

If one person tells you that you have donkey ears, pay no attention. If two people tell you have donkey ears get a saddle.

Many people who I have watched the movie with or listened to the soundtrack with have stated it’s the hook theme. We may not be as smart as some people who can mathematically dissect the music and conclude it’s not the same. But we know what we hear and it’s the hook theme (period). And I don’t hear the hook theme in any other Star Wars soundtrack.

The track I think has the most similarities to the love theme is Granny Wendy



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Grand Admiral Thrawn
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  In Response to:
forlom

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
ChewieKaBlooey
Tarkin's Teeth!!!!!   Wednesday, May 22, 2002 (10:21 p.m.) 

> If one person tells you that you have donkey ears, pay no attention. If
> two people tell you have donkey ears get a saddle.

> For the love of the Emperor, I am a music person myself And i play the flaute so I understand the semantics of minor key this major key that.. I jsut took the liberty of playing the Love theme across the stars ( Can play form ear) Anyways it is not stolen from Hook you want to know why. Get your head closer to the screen so you can see JOHN WILLIAMS COMPOSED HOOK so if you thinkyou r so smart then think that he did, the theme is different its to obvious,my advice is go to college for Ear Training 101 as far as I am concerned AOTC sountrack is the #####on Jabba steroids. For those who have dicernable ears thanks its not often I hear of people who know what they are talking about.

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juju-bean
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  In Response to:
Grand Admiral Thrawn

  Responses to this Comment:
Roman Dlouhý
MSM
Re: Tarkin's Teeth!!!!!   Thursday, May 23, 2002 (12:08 a.m.) 

Yeah? I transcribe music by ear and the theme is definately similar. I too have looked over the music. It is not the exact same but definately similar. In the love theme he raises the melody a minor sixth two the 3rd tone, since key is arbitrary lets say its in, c minor, this note would would be an Eb. It then moves a minor third down to its root. The melody then proceeds a perfect fourth up and plays a triplet figure around the Eb, (F, Eb, D,Eb) resolving to tonic. Then it plays a triplet figure around D down a major third to Bb then up a Major second to the tonic(Eb, D, C, D, Bb, C). Then a maj second down and then a minor third down, bringing us back to the fourth below C, which will lead to the Eb once again. Now, in hook, (lets use c minor again) he goes from the G up a P4 (this is one of the differences between the interval relationships. It is easily recognized as the same tonality, but due to the context of the film he chose the more heroic sounding P4, as the minor sixth sounds more pretty and sad) to the tonic, C. Then repeating the tonic he rises a fourth and performs the same figure around the Eb; again, repeats the tonic and plays the figure around D, then down a major third to the G. It of course is not the exact same but very similar. From there the themes obviously seperate, I'm just explaining the interval relationships in the beginnings of the melody are relatively the same... this is what people are hearing and this is why people think its the same melody. I say: its similar at the beginning but the themes are not clones. Personnally, i don't see what the big deal is; he merely uses a similar motif over a similar structure. The speed, and the rhythm from which they are played is completely different and the emotion placed into the piece is also very different. Furthermore, it sounds like the love theme is in triple meter; again, different than Hook. I very much respect John Williams music, and i think it is tragic it has apparently been so abused in the most recent star wars movie.

BTW: I am referring to the theme played at the beginning of the hook prologue... sorry if i went over some of you guys's heads :P If someone out there feels like correcting me, go ahead, i have the right to be completely wrong :P

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Roman Dlouhý
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  In Response to:
juju-bean

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
ChewieKaBlooey
Juju, may I ask you a question?   Thursday, May 23, 2002 (6:40 a.m.) 

Oh, thanks so much for the chords and tonality elucidation! I don't play any instrument and I have no musical education as well, but it's exciting to see John Williams' music itemized (or what the word is) the way you do it! I like it!

I would have one small question, juju, if you don't mind. Do you think John Williams realizes that there is a certain similitude between the opening riff of Hook theme and Across the Stars love theme that many have pointed out at? Myself I don't find it any belittling the impact of the love theme upon my emotional innerness and I don't feel being any betrayed, but what may torment me a little is the question whether John wanted for the new love theme to be a "safe bet" and couldn't find a motif "sturdy" enough to deliver the longed-for, so he couldn't have but anchored the opening of this love theme in much-worshiped Hook's theme? Or is it , you think, just an coincidence that these two OUTSTANDING motifs eventually as performed by the orchestra sound a bit reminiscent of each other? Because I still DO believe that John is capable of bringing out a complete original-sounding theme that could deliver the desired effect as it was intended for the Across the Stars.

I don't know why I am asking all this, but running out of ideas is the last thing of which I would have wanted to speculate in connection with John Williams' compositional skills and his unflagging inventiveness.

Thanks in advance! (May I know which of all of the themes Williams has composed so far does appeal to you most above all, for either compositional perfection or emotional impact?)

Roman.-)

P.S. I have read one guys' post at somewhere else who heard a snippet of music used in probably trailer for MINORITY REPORT and he reports that there are certain similarities between the stuff presented and the Lost World score's actiony music... This would have concerned me either; though the guy is not 100% sure whether the stuff as appeared in the trailer was the new music or actually outtake from the Lost World score.

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juju-bean
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  In Response to:
Roman Dlouhý

  Responses to this Comment:
Joshua Luetkemeyer
Re: Juju, may I ask you a question?   Thursday, May 23, 2002 (10:45 a.m.) 

Hmmm... I'm sure John would perhaps recognize the similarity, but I doubt he'd think twice about it. I also doubt he was trying to trick anyone by placing a theme that sounds like hook in the movie. Melodies have a bit of life of their own. It would be hard to hear that melody once playing that first triplet figure to go anywhere else. Melodies don't just go anywhere, at least not in a piece such as this. Then again, its only the beginning that share a similar structure, they change quickly. Even from the second note we have a diffence, Williams opens hook with a rising perfect 4th, which sounds much more heroic than the minor 6th that is played in AotC. Also, the way they are played/orchestrated/arranged is quite different. The meter is different. Aside from the similar interval relationship near the beginning the themes in their entirity are very different.

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Joshua Luetkemeyer
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  In Response to:
juju-bean

  Responses to this Comment:
MSM
MSM
The theme   Thursday, May 23, 2002 (10:09 p.m.) 

I think the first 6 or 7 notes and the rhythm are what people find so similar. And I'd agree there, it just reminded me of Hook. But also, being a composer, I know that some or my pieces may mirror other pieces to some listeners, but to me, they are completely different.

Just a note to everybody on both "sides" of the issue: don't say that it's ridiculous, or stupid to say that it's a ripoff theme, or to say that it's not. Everybody hears music differently. Some people, like me, pick up more on the chords, voice leading, and unusual progressions more so than melody. I mean, my favorite score from the last year or so is Final Fantasy becuase of the extended tonalities (and some atonal stuff).

I PERSONALLY wish that Mr Williams had changed just a bit of the triplet rhythm of the theme. That is what makes me think of Hook (though I'm getting over that with more listens.

On a final note, the Love theme here, and the force theme (I think it's the force theme, C F G Ab Bb Ab C, C F G Ab C Ab FC Bb... etc) work REALLY well together with slight modifications. I look forward to possibly hearing them in counterpoint later on in the series.


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MSM
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  In Response to:
Joshua Luetkemeyer
Re: The theme   Tuesday, May 28, 2002 (6:56 a.m.) 

> On a final note, the Love theme here, and the force theme (I think it's
> the force theme, C F G Ab Bb Ab C, C F G Ab C Ab FC Bb... etc) work REALLY
> well together with slight modifications. I look forward to possibly
> hearing them in counterpoint later on in the series.

There you have a point. I did try to use the theme as a counterpoint for (variations on) the Imperial March and Anakins theme, which however didn't yield very much results. However indeed what you say could be a possibility. Anyway I think there must be a reason why Williams took it for granted that his new theme could remine people of the Hook theme. I think there really is some musical reason why it could not have been some other theme and which will reveal in Episode III.

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MSM
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  In Response to:
Joshua Luetkemeyer
Re: The theme   Tuesday, May 28, 2002 (7:18 a.m.) 

Please read our discussion under "Themes in AotC". It discusses some of the same points we do here.

MSM

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ChewieKaBlooey
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  In Response to:
Roman Dlouhý
Re: Juju, may I ask you a question?   Saturday, May 25, 2002 (12:15 p.m.) 

> Do you think
> John Williams realizes that there is a certain similitude between the
> opening riff of Hook theme and Across the Stars love theme that many have
> pointed out at?

Of course, I have no idea what Juju thinks, but he may or he may not. It is my opinion that there are certain ways to arrange musical notes such that they produce more or less emotion. I don't think Williams specifically has this in mind when he creates. However, I do think that when people make good music, there end up being similar patterns since it is these specific patterns that for whatever reason touch us. I would seriously doubt that ANYONE would want to reuse music specifically because it worked well in the past. I'm still trying to figure out what James Horner is doing however. He reuses music that DIDN'T work in the past.

Again... my opinion.




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MSM
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  In Response to:
juju-bean

  Responses to this Comment:
juju-bean
Re: Tarkin's Teeth!!!!!   Tuesday, May 28, 2002 (7:04 a.m.) 

> Furthermore, it sounds like the love theme is in triple meter;
> again, different than Hook.

I am glad to see you took the task on you to give us such a thorough explanation! However with the above statement I do not agree, that is, I think the Hook prologue theme is in a triple meter too (listen to the introducing trumpet and woodwinds).

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juju-bean
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  In Response to:
MSM
Re: Tarkin's Teeth!!!!!   Monday, June 10, 2002 (10:47 a.m.) 

> I am glad to see you took the task on you to give us such a thorough
> explanation! However with the above statement I do not agree, that is, I
> think the Hook prologue theme is in a triple meter too (listen to the
> introducing trumpet and woodwinds).

Nope... hook is not in triple meter, fairly obvious too.

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ChewieKaBlooey
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  In Response to:
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Re: Tarkin's Teeth!!!!!   Saturday, May 25, 2002 (12:05 p.m.) 

Did anyone else have a hard time reading this post? I'm still laughing at the Tarkin's teeth subject line.

ROFL




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Admiral Piett
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  In Response to:
John
Hook Theme   Wednesday, May 29, 2002 (8:23 a.m.) 

Seeing as there has been endless discussion about the similarity of the Hook theme and the Love Theme from AOTC, I thought I would put in my two cents. I do not know whether or not Williams is aware of the similarity between the two pieces (but if he is, it obviously does not bother him to the extent it seems to bother a lot of you). But if he is aware of it, it does make a weird kind of sense to use the Hook material here...after all, Anakin DOES lose his hand, just like Captain Hook, right???

Personally I think you're all making WAY too much of this.

And by the way, I was at a Boston Pops concert just last night, conducted by Williams, of which the entire program was Williams music. On the program, incidentally, were BOTH "Flight to Neverland" AND "Across the Stars." Nobody stood up and booed at "Across the Stars" yelling that it was the same as the Hook music.

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