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LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is better. *NM*

Levente Benedek
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Christian Kühn
Levente Benedek
Qui-Gon Gandalf
Timmy B.
LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is better. *NM*   Monday, January 7, 2002 (12:43 p.m.) 



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Christian Kühn
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Levente Benedek

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Levente Benedek
Yeah, right! This gets my vote for best joke of January 2002 *NM*   Tuesday, January 8, 2002 (3:43 a.m.) 



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Levente Benedek
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Do you know who is Jerry Goldsmith? *NM*   Tuesday, January 15, 2002 (12:14 p.m.) 



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Levente Benedek
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Than tell me your opinion. *NM*   Tuesday, January 8, 2002 (10:48 a.m.) 



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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Sean Raduechel
Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Thursday, January 10, 2002 (3:21 p.m.) 

Ok Im a HUGE HUGE fan of 13th Warrior BUT I gotta say that FotR was better. Although 13th Warrior and Lord of the Rings are both based on Beowulf..

Qui

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Timmy B.
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What is "Beowulf"? *NM*   Saturday, January 12, 2002 (8:34 p.m.) 



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James
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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Saturday, January 12, 2002 (9:31 p.m.) 

Beowulf is the first english epic that we have record of today today. Have you not read it in school? Anyway, 13th Warrior is based on Beowulf and historical sources (well, the Michael Chrichton's book is, the movie is of course based on that book) I didn't know LOTR was based on Beowulf (directly anyway, all epics have similar thematic strands)

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Ian
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Toad
Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Saturday, January 12, 2002 (10:32 p.m.) 

I don't see the resemblance (besides glancing ones) between Beowulf and LOTR. The heroes are completely different, the situations and enemies are polar, and the execution (epic poem vs. epic prose) is divergent. One could make the case that Tolkien was influenced by Beowulf, since he's the first scholar not to take it literally, but then, Beowulf is the basis for many of English's traditions. Somewhere I read that Tolkien's original idea for the books was to create a uniquely British fantasy history, seeing as most of their culture is imported, but instead created a whole new genre of fiction.

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Sunday, January 13, 2002 (9:13 a.m.) 

Yeah, there isn't any visible influence to me (only thematic strands that are common in many epics) The LOTR (actually the hobbit) started as bedtime stories for Tolkiens son, only later did he write it down. I read that the LOTR was somewhat of a reaction to C.S. Lewis's stories which were loaded with christian themes and symbolism. Tolkien wanted to show that it was possible to create a strong "mythological" cycle without relying on Christian symbolism (I think it worked) I don't see any significant likenesses between Beowulf and LOTR, I don't think Tolkien intended any either.

> I don't see the resemblance (besides glancing ones) between Beowulf and
> LOTR. The heroes are completely different, the situations and enemies are
> polar, and the execution (epic poem vs. epic prose) is divergent. One
> could make the case that Tolkien was influenced by Beowulf, since he's the
> first scholar not to take it literally, but then, Beowulf is the basis for
> many of English's traditions. Somewhere I read that Tolkien's original
> idea for the books was to create a uniquely British fantasy history,
> seeing as most of their culture is imported, but instead created a whole
> new genre of fiction.


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Toad
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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Tuesday, February 5, 2002 (10:34 a.m.) 

> I don't see the resemblance (besides glancing ones) between Beowulf and
> LOTR. The heroes are completely different, the situations and enemies are
> polar, and the execution (epic poem vs. epic prose) is divergent. One
> could make the case that Tolkien was influenced by Beowulf, since he's the
> first scholar not to take it literally, but then, Beowulf is the basis for
> many of English's traditions. Somewhere I read that Tolkien's original
> idea for the books was to create a uniquely British fantasy history,
> seeing as most of their culture is imported, but instead created a whole
> new genre of fiction.

Incorrect, Tolkien's original idea was not to 'create a uniquely British fantasy history', the fantasy history was merely a side project. Tolkien, upon hearing the beauty of the Finnish language decided to make one equally beautiful. He created his fantasy realm merely as a basis for his two elven languages (damn good basis).

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Wednesday, February 6, 2002 (12:35 p.m.) 

> Incorrect, Tolkien's original idea was not to 'create a uniquely British
> fantasy history', the fantasy history was merely a side project. Tolkien,
> upon hearing the beauty of the Finnish language decided to make one
> equally beautiful. He created his fantasy realm merely as a basis for his
> two elven languages (damn good basis).

Ha, that's where you're wrong. Yes, the original purpose was to showcase his new language, but the idea behind Eriol (or ælfwine) was to provide England with its own mythological history that wasn't inherited from the Vikings or the Franks at least in part. The histories were twofold: one, to showcase his new languages and two, to give England a history. I remember reading that in both of the books of the Lost Tales (which I'm sure you're familiar with).

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Wednesday, February 6, 2002 (2:09 p.m.) 

> Ha, that's where you're wrong. Yes, the original purpose was to showcase
> his new language, but the idea behind Eriol (or ælfwine) was to provide
> England with its own mythological history that wasn't inherited from the
> Vikings or the Franks at least in part. The histories were twofold: one,
> to showcase his new languages and two, to give England a history. I
> remember reading that in both of the books of the Lost Tales (which I'm
> sure you're familiar with).

Well gee, then why did he take so much from the Eldar Edda?

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Thursday, February 7, 2002 (9:11 a.m.) 

> Well gee, then why did he take so much from the Eldar Edda?

I think you misunderstand me. This is how I see it happening: he starts writing a past for England, a legendary one, even before he creates the Elvish languages (since he wasn't a linguist when he started creating stories). Then, after he gets an education, he takes the stories he created, gives the characters the language, and uses it to showcase his brilliant creation. Sorry to have caused any confusion.

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Thursday, February 7, 2002 (7:57 p.m.) 

> I think you misunderstand me. This is how I see it happening: he starts
> writing a past for England, a legendary one, even before he creates the
> Elvish languages (since he wasn't a linguist when he started creating
> stories). Then, after he gets an education, he takes the stories he
> created, gives the characters the language, and uses it to showcase his
> brilliant creation. Sorry to have caused any confusion.

ITs not that, its that the Eldar Edda (which he used to make his world) is a collection of germanic (ie. viking and so forth) stories and legends.

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Monday, January 14, 2002 (5:00 p.m.) 

Heh I just did my highschool senior paper on Beowulf's influences in modern literature. For a pretty direct link, compare King Hrothgar and King Theoden.

Qui

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Tuesday, January 15, 2002 (12:08 p.m.) 

Haha, I laugh in the face of Theoden!

Heh, while the kings posess many similarities, and it is true that Tolkien was a Beowulf scholar, I think that you'll have to do better. Hrothgar wasn't born of a higher race of men, with certain powers of the mind that lesser men did have. Hrothgar didn't voluntarily abandon Herot; rather, his men fled for fear of Grendel. Theoden willingly left the halls of the Riddermark for a refuge of safe haven, knowing that the halls were soon, not presently, under atack. Hrothgar didn't have to throw off the oppression of an advisor sent from evil.

I do see what you mean though. Like James said, there are glancing references in the LOTR, but no full-blown "I am from Beowulf". Also, you have to keep in mind that Tolkien once said that he hated even the smell of allegory in any of its forms.

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Wednesday, January 16, 2002 (5:07 p.m.) 

Yeah I guess I shouldn't have said "based on".

I meant more influenced by..like..uh..Temptation Island was influenced by Survivor (both were terrible!)

In any case, Beowulf kneels to Lord of the Rings!

Qui

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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Friday, January 18, 2002 (3:58 p.m.) 

Thanks. I'm sure I'll read before the end of my high school career...

-+Tim

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: What is "Beowulf"?   Monday, January 14, 2002 (4:58 p.m.) 

It's a poem from the Anglo-Saxon period that has been passed down and translated and is a major influence for modern "fantasy" writing (Lord of the Rings was based on it((Tolkien studied and taught about Beowulf)))

Qui

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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Sunday, January 13, 2002 (4:40 p.m.) 

> Ok Im a HUGE HUGE fan of 13th Warrior BUT I gotta say that FotR was
> better. Although 13th Warrior and Lord of the Rings are both based on
> Beowulf..

LOTR isn't based on any Beowulf I've ever read.

Josh

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Monday, January 14, 2002 (5:08 p.m.) 

Well it has more influencing than being directly based on it.

Take the dragon in Beowulf for example. Someone steals a golden flagon so he goes and attacks people. In The Hobbit, Bilbo steals a golden flagon (I believe) and Smaug goes wacky and attacks the water town.

And especially since Tolkien taught about topics in the Anglo-Saxon period, as well as delivering an essay on Beowulf in 1936 shortly before publishing The Hobbit.

And Im drabbling on now..*holds head in hands crazy like*

Qui

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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Monday, January 14, 2002 (8:43 p.m.) 

Ok, that makes sense. Beowulf is kinda the basis for a lot of things, LOTR is infinitely more complex (Beowulfs linear and Tolkiens a genius)

> Well it has more influencing than being directly based on it.

> Take the dragon in Beowulf for example. Someone steals a golden flagon so
> he goes and attacks people. In The Hobbit, Bilbo steals a golden flagon (I
> believe) and Smaug goes wacky and attacks the water town.

> And especially since Tolkien taught about topics in the Anglo-Saxon
> period, as well as delivering an essay on Beowulf in 1936 shortly before
> publishing The Hobbit.

> And Im drabbling on now..*holds head in hands crazy like*

> Qui


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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Wednesday, January 16, 2002 (5:12 p.m.) 

> Ok, that makes sense. Beowulf is kinda the basis for a lot of things, LOTR
> is infinitely more complex (Beowulfs linear and Tolkiens a genius)

Oh certainly, I mean Tolkien's work has made the standard fantasy story that a LOT of modern stuff is influenced by (hah said influenced not based! I think Rob Jordan would come argue with me).

And the soundtrack still rules even after 6 weeks!

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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Tuesday, February 5, 2002 (10:28 a.m.) 

> Oh certainly, I mean Tolkien's work has made the standard fantasy story
> that a LOT of modern stuff is influenced by (hah said influenced not
> based! I think Rob Jordan would come argue with me).

> And the soundtrack still rules even after 6 weeks!

The LOTR may seem that it has alot in common with Beowulf, but the reason is that Tolkien took alot of inspiration from The Elder Edda, which is a bunch of stories and legends (I believe norse in origin?). He even took the name Gandalf from The Elder Edda, wherein Gandalf was in a list of dwarves and was said to be a half-dwarf half-elf. Tolkien also took the names for sixteen of his dwarves from that list as well as various plot element (such as a ring of great power that held a terrible curse).



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Sean Raduechel
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Qui-Gon Gandalf
Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Thursday, February 21, 2002 (10:45 a.m.) 

>Although 13th Warrior and Lord of the Rings are both based on
> Beowulf..

> Qui

I recognized the connection in this with 13th warrior, however, Tolkien wrote LOR with a purpose much like that of C.S. Lewis and the chronicles of narnia. Lord of the Rings was written with a more biblical context in mind. So I'm entirely certain of any ties between it and beowulf.

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: LOTR is like The 13th Warrior? No:The 13th Warrior is be   Friday, February 22, 2002 (3:27 p.m.) 

Yeah I really really tried hard to like the Narnia series, but I was spoiled and read all of the MiddleEarth books (I mean ALL of em) first and I never really could get into Lewis

I wonder if a new Narnia series would be considered?

Put a Howard Shore soundtrack on that and it'd be great!

Qui

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
Definitely   Saturday, January 12, 2002 (8:38 p.m.) 

I think we'd all agree LOTR is Shore's greatest accomplishments, and one of the best scores of the year, but for Goldsmith fans, there is no action/adventure music quite like Goldsmith! 13th Warrior is one of Goldsmith's absolute bests of his latter career to top it.

-+Tim

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Qui-Gon Gandalf
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Re: Definitely   Monday, January 14, 2002 (5:02 p.m.) 

Truly, I think the males chanting in the background gives a wonderful viking feel to it.

Qui

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