> I'm not missing the point. "Parodic" may actually be the wrong
> word that I used. On top of the other usual Zimmer fare, this moment
> manifests the score's unclear focus and failure at creating a distinct
> tone that the movie needed so badly. You underestimate the flexibility of
> film scoring (a term that almost seems pointless to bring up in a Zimmer
> discussion) and the influence it has on a film. You could score any given
> scene in numerous ways, from different perspectives, and of course the
> Western tune kind of works in that scene. But it isn't the only way to go,
> not by a long shot, and from numerous possibilities, Zimmer chose one of
> the silliest.

I don't underestimate flexibility at all...I love it. I felt the main theme for Pirates 3 was pretty flexible and I felt the western showdown wasn't silly. I didn't start laughing...I thought it gave the scene some coolness

> Dramatic film scoring is all about choosing a character's perspective and
> put that down on paper, and one of my main complaints about Zimmer is that
> he rarely does that. And it's because of that why so much of his music
> comes of as flat and emotionally detached from the film. He's not scoring
> to the emotions of the characters (if he intends that, then he's obviously
> not capable to do it), and rarely to the audience; he's scoring to the
> very surface of the film, and he stays as superficial as possible. Instead
> of either scoring Will's or Elizabeth's feelings, he simply scores
> "love".

Plenty of other composers don't base their themes around characters' feelings. Very few of the lord of the rings motifs are character-based, just as an example. Yes, Zimmer is not the most imaginative of composers, but he manages to charge up the emotions inside the film, even if they sometimes are ripe with testosterone. The emotion in that scene is showdown. When the guitar riff comes in, all the main characters are meeting up on the island. Is Zimmer supposed to throw six motifs into about 30 seconds of music? NO...that's what main themes are for. Let's remember that the theme you are referring to is NOT the love theme...it shows up in various scenes that have absolutely nothing to do with love.

> That moment on the island is, simply put, completely inappropriate. It
> scores aka tells the audience, nothing. It neither captures pride, nor
> desparation, nor Beckett's feelings of triumph, nor Will or Elizabeth's
> feelings, nor Jack's plotting. If anything, it conveys a feeling of
> determination, but that is neither relevant to the storytelling, nor
> surprising or effective on the audience.
> It takes this moment from a pirate film, and throws it into a pure western
> setting - and that's parodic. You don't have to laugh, although you
> certainly could.

I actually did laugh at one point during the scene when you see Davy Jones standing in a bucket, but anyways...it was supposed to be a parlay, and Beckett certainly seemed triumphant. Do you really expect someone to show desperation in a showdown? THAT'S NOT WHAT A SHOWDOWN IS! You hold your ground and you show determination. The scene was completely relevant in that it set the stage and also provided a way to get will and jack on the opposite ships.

> Yes, the problem is that Hoist The Colours is one power anthem amongst
> many power anthems for PotC. Or any other Zimmer score for that matter.
> And people are getting tired, not to say sick, of it.

No, "people" is a bad term to use. Yes, some people are getting sick of how derivative Hans Zimmer has been, but in this case, it's still a very entertaining score for me. Outside of wanting to throw the disk into the sun every time track 12 starts and noticing the similar three note descending brass part in the last few minutes of track 3, I can listen to it without nitpicking over how similar it is because really, it isn't. As opposed to Pirates 1, where the ghost pirate theme is exactly ripped from the combat theme from Tribal War in Black Hawk Down.

> And even if something doesn't start as a power anthem, it will be one by
> the end of the album. No matter how much personality Zimmer gives a theme,
> its final development will always be the same brass/orchestral clashes
> power anthem.

I really don't think so. The main theme for this film gets louder and raucous, but it never turns into the bass-heavy, choir laden anthems that have characterized Zimmer’s career.

> I defy you to give me track numbers and timings of that "very
> flexible main theme". And while we're at it, don't call Pirates 3
> swashbuckling because it isn't.

I’m talking about the main theme, the one that everyone keeps calling the love theme. And I thought it gained a little swashbuckling flair in track 13. I’m not calling this a swashbuckling score, not in the least…it can’t hold a candle to cutthroat island.

> Oh, come on! Zimmer's idea of action has always been the same, and I
> suppose that will never change. Big percussion with 20 horns playing an
> overly simplistic motif always in the same register, with marcato strings
> chopping mindlessly along, playing the complementary chords to the motif
> without any hint at atonality or chromatic changes. Please. It's the same
> in Gladiator, Batman Begins, King Arthur, Last Samurai or Pirates 1-3 for
> that matter. In the end, Zimmer's action music is nothing but noise. Maybe
> shiny and thematic, but still noise. There's absolutely zero dynamic range
> in his action writing. Everything is padding along with overbearing
> percussion hits, and the orchestra "varies" between f and fff.
> That he barely changes keys doesn't help either.
I don’t think it’s mindless. It’s occasionally unimaginative, but it’s still entertaining. I happen to think King Arthur’s action music is pretty good…I like the complete version of the Ice Battle track (again, I’m citing a bootleg). Yes, it didn’t achieve the complex grandeur of, say, David Arnold (god, I haven’t listened to him in a while), but I still like it.

But you’re dead-on about Batman Begins. SUCH A WASTED OPPURTUNITY.

> No kidding? But all joking aside, I found King Arthur to be one of the
> most atrocious listening experiences I've ever had.

Bummer for you then.

> As Cesar pointed out numerous times now, even the most horrible garbage
> can be entertaining. You may not be used to more varied music, but I find
> Zimmer's action music not engaging, but tiresome and aggravating because
> you constantly want to shout "DO something!"
> Well, no, it isn't. You may not want to hear that, nobody would want to
> hear that, but creativity, complexity, and variability in music isn't a
> matter of personal taste.

Agreed…I love creativity, complexity, and variability (I have to own close to 100 by now), which is why, if I made a list, Zimmer probably couldn’t even crack my top 30. And while those three components almost required, the way we interpret those are a matter of personal taste. I guess you just can’t get engaged by Zimmer and I can…bummer for you I guess.

> Scores like Pirates 1-3 are musical garbage compared to other scores, and
> they will always be that.

There are a lot of scores worse than Pirates 1-3, like…hey, I get to mention Batman Begins again! At least At World’s End was engaging, entertaining, and very good in the film.

>They are printed on paper, and you can compare them to other works whenever you >want.

Huh?

> You and many other may be entertained by this garbage, and that's fine,
> but the scores still remain garbage. And it should be allowed to point
> that out.

Simply because the score does not achieve greatness does not make it garbage. I don’t give every score that doesn’t receive a 5-star rating 1-star.

> Nah, I've just listened to too many real composers to find Zimmer's music
> even remotely rousing.

I’ve listened to plenty of other composers too…just because I’ve heard more diverse music doesn’t take away from Zimmer’s ability to create strong, rousing stuff. I think the main themes for Gladiator helped amp up the cheering. I think Crimson Tide gives the movie some gusto while making it a little more regal.

> *I* should stay away from soundtracks? My dear boy, Zimmer's music is just
> one step above a Britney Spears song, so maybe you should direct that
> advice to yourself.
> Get some musical knowledge and analyse some conductor's scores before you
> spout off such ridiculous BS, then I might be able to take such pathetic
> crap more seriously.

First off, don’t start saying “this is pathetic crap” or other things like that if you want people to take your arguments seriously. Second, you think reading conductor’s scores makes you more enlightened? Come on! It’s how we hear the music…I guess every other musical reviewer is far less superior than you because they don’t read scores when they listen to the music. It’s like Andy Trudeau says, “they don’t give us the scores when we review these” (this was in response to someone asking him if a harp was used in a certain munich cue…and I’m paraphrasing him by the way). Third, one step above a Britney Spears song? You obviously didn’t go into this soundtrack with an open mind…I think your bias is getting in the way of you enjoying music. Fourth, get some musical knowledge? Don’t throw around generic condescending advice like that. I’ve had lots of years of understanding music…and anyways, this is about me listening to the music, not me having a masters degree. Fifth, my dear boy? HOW OLD ARE YOU? (If you don’t mind me asking, that is) Sixth, a prerequisite for being objective in reviewing music requires you to leave your bias at the door. You should at least avoid commenting on Zimmer because you’ve made it quite clear that you will never give him the chance to write good music.

> By all means, Hans Zimmer doesn't represent the art of film scoring that
> everybody but himself practices.

There’s some group of everyone else that is film scoring? Please, everyone has a different style. And you’re telling me people like Gustavo equal film music? Oh dear.

> One decent effort has over a dozen horrible ones standing against it. One
> decent effort is supposed to be Zimmer's saving grace? Give me a break.

Wow…that statement really hurts what you’re trying to say. You’re letting your anger at Zimmer over, in your mind, previous failures prevent you from liking this score. You’re saying that even if Zimmer does a good job, you’re still going to punish him for other efforts. Okay, since Mission Impossible was a weak score, all danny elfman scores now suck! Does that sound right? No.