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Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan

JB11sos
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AhN
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Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (2:19 p.m.) 

So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay, we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to them.''

There are some more details in the interview here:

https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-interview/



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AhN
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The Orchestrator
Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (2:55 p.m.) 

> So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the
> Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay,
> we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to
> them.''

> There are some more details in the interview here:

> https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-interview/

Thought about tacking this on to the thread I made the other day before remembering I have better things to work on lol. The most fascinating tidbit is when she elaborates on what the showrunner told her at the start, when they weren't sure if they could use any Williams themes:

"Deborah [Chow] was saying to me 'I think we need to score the show as if we're not going to be able to use [Williams' themes]...I don't want to find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own thing.'"

Between this and the Rogue One stuff discussed in the previous thread, it's unclear to me whether it's a matter of 1. Williams has the final say on his music being used, or 2. Disney/Lucasfilm is just extraordinarily deferential to him. Because if it's the latter, they kneecapped themselves with this show. And if it's the former (which is more plausible from a legal standpoint), then he basically gave free rein to Powell, pulled Giacchino in a bit, blocked Holt on this...but also let Goransson go for it in Mando Season 2?? If he's had this influence the entire time, his application of that power has been confusing.


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Edmund Meinerts
Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (3:22 p.m.) 

> Thought about tacking this on to the thread I made the other day before
> remembering I have better things to work on lol. The most fascinating
> tidbit is when she elaborates on what the showrunner told her at the
> start, when they weren't sure if they could use any Williams themes:

> 'Deborah [Chow] was saying to me 'I think we need to score the show as
> if we're not going to be able to use [Williams' themes]...I don't want to
> find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own
> thing.''

> Between this and the Rogue One stuff discussed in the previous thread,
> it's unclear to me whether it's a matter of 1. Williams has the final say
> on his music being used, or 2. Disney/Lucasfilm is just extraordinarily
> deferential to him. Because if it's the latter, they kneecapped themselves
> with this show. And if it's the former (which is more plausible from a
> legal standpoint), then he basically gave free rein to Powell, pulled
> Giacchino in a bit, blocked Holt on this...but also let Goransson go for
> it in Mando Season 2?? If he's had this influence the entire time, his
> application of that power has been confusing.

It is even more confusing if you take into consideration that Kinner quote a bunch of JW themes in both Clone Wars and Rebels


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Edmund Meinerts
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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (12:33 a.m.) 

> It is even more confusing if you take into consideration that Kinner quote
> a bunch of JW themes in both Clone Wars and Rebels

Those (and the video games) are probably beneath Williams' notice... on a more prestigious high-budget TV series that's essentially part of the main series perhaps he cares more.


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (4:14 p.m.) 

> Thought about tacking this on to the thread I made the other day before
> remembering I have better things to work on lol. The most fascinating
> tidbit is when she elaborates on what the showrunner told her at the
> start, when they weren't sure if they could use any Williams themes:

> 'Deborah [Chow] was saying to me 'I think we need to score the show as
> if we're not going to be able to use [Williams' themes]...I don't want to
> find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own
> thing.''

> Between this and the Rogue One stuff discussed in the previous thread,
> it's unclear to me whether it's a matter of 1. Williams has the final say
> on his music being used, or 2. Disney/Lucasfilm is just extraordinarily
> deferential to him. Because if it's the latter, they kneecapped themselves
> with this show. And if it's the former (which is more plausible from a
> legal standpoint), then he basically gave free rein to Powell, pulled
> Giacchino in a bit, blocked Holt on this...but also let Goransson go for
> it in Mando Season 2?? If he's had this influence the entire time, his
> application of that power has been confusing.

You pretty much covered my thoughts. What an absolutely baffling and bizarre situation.


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (2:43 a.m.) 

> You pretty much covered my thoughts. What an absolutely baffling and
> bizarre situation.

A poster at JWFan pointedly asked the following: 'That still doesn't explain why her remaining music for the show is so bad.'



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AhN
Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (4:21 p.m.) 

> Thought about tacking this on to the thread I made the other day before
> remembering I have better things to work on lol. The most fascinating
> tidbit is when she elaborates on what the showrunner told her at the
> start, when they weren't sure if they could use any Williams themes:

> 'Deborah [Chow] was saying to me 'I think we need to score the show as
> if we're not going to be able to use [Williams' themes]...I don't want to
> find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own
> thing.''

> Between this and the Rogue One stuff discussed in the previous thread,
> it's unclear to me whether it's a matter of 1. Williams has the final say
> on his music being used, or 2. Disney/Lucasfilm is just extraordinarily
> deferential to him. Because if it's the latter, they kneecapped themselves
> with this show. And if it's the former (which is more plausible from a
> legal standpoint), then he basically gave free rein to Powell, pulled
> Giacchino in a bit, blocked Holt on this...but also let Goransson go for
> it in Mando Season 2?? If he's had this influence the entire time, his
> application of that power has been confusing.

It seems like it's about circumstances than anything. I don't think composers own the right to their own music and that probably includes Williams himself. The producers are taking his wisdom out of respect. Kennedy has known Williams for decades. If the idea is the music is a mess and they don't know what to do, they turn to Williams.



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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (4:39 p.m.) 

> So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the
> Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay,
> we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to
> them.''

Well... this is just headache inducing trying to figure out the logic behind Williams (or whoever else's) decision making process on allowing legacy themes to be used. It feels almost like it depends on who is liked or "in" with whoever at the moment. As someone else pointed out, the fact that Kiner, Powell and Haab are "good to go" with using preexisting themes while Giacchino and Holt get held back... ugh.

I really hope this isn't purely a John Williams thing as this does put a minor blight on the man, in my eyes. Nothing worthy of a rant or anything, just, disappointed if this is the case. :/



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AhN
Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (2:53 p.m.) 

> Well... this is just headache inducing trying to figure out the logic
> behind Williams (or whoever else's) decision making process on allowing
> legacy themes to be used. It feels almost like it depends on who is liked
> or 'in' with whoever at the moment. As someone else pointed out, the fact
> that Kiner, Powell and Haab are 'good to go' with using preexisting themes
> while Giacchino and Holt get held back... ugh.

> I really hope this isn't purely a John Williams thing as this does put a
> minor blight on the man, in my eyes. Nothing worthy of a rant or anything,
> just, disappointed if this is the case. :/

It makes John Williams seem more human and relatable to me. He's professional and courteous but at the same time he has standards for how his work is presented (if only he'd have the same amount of scrutiny for the trailer renditions of his music)

The situation also led to the Powell/Williams collaboration; one of the most interesting collaborations in film score history.



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AhN
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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (2:58 p.m.) 

> The situation also led to the Powell/Williams collaboration; one of the
> most interesting collaborations in film score history.

It's no Nathan Barr and Randy Edelman.


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (3:26 p.m.) 

> It's no Nathan Barr and Randy Edelman.

I now want to hear that combo. Preferably on an Eli Roth horror film.


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (3:50 p.m.) 

> I now want to hear that combo. Preferably on an Eli Roth horror film.

Then you're in luck, behold this HISTORIC collaboration for a psychological thriller: https://www.varesesarabande.com/products/boy-next-door

(please listen to the score on your preferred streaming platform before you buy it, I don't want to be held liable for my jokes)


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (8:12 p.m.) 

> Then you're in luck, behold this HISTORIC collaboration for a
> psychological thriller:
> https://www.varesesarabande.com/products/boy-next-door

> (please listen to the score on your preferred streaming platform before
> you buy it, I don't want to be held liable for my jokes)

Oh my god, I thought you were joking…


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (9:19 p.m.) 

> Oh my god, I thought you were joking…

No he wasn't, I actually listened to this one as my library had it, it was good, but weird with lots of ambient electronics, although it has some really haunting female vocals provided by Lisbeth Scott.


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Monday, June 27, 2022 (9:42 a.m.) 

> No he wasn't, I actually listened to this one as my library had it, it was
> good, but weird with lots of ambient electronics, although it has some
> really haunting female vocals provided by Lisbeth Scott.

Huh, intriguing…


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Saturday, June 25, 2022 (6:25 p.m.) 
• Now Playing: (baseball on TV)  

> So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the
> Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay,
> we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to
> them.''

So my hunch was correct. The spotting issues with legacy themes were by Williams' own directive. Not surprising at all.

We know that Williams is territorial about the cinematic entries in the franchise. (This series counts. He doesn't care about the video games, animations, etc., because there is less prestige there.)

We also know that Disney/Lucasfilm and Kennedy show huge deference to Williams in how his legacy themes are adapted in things like Rogue One, Solo, and Kenobi. At least Holt was told of Williams' spotting decisions ahead of time. Giacchino simply had to re-write parts of his score after it was written.

Taking this a step further, I would not be surprised if Williams made his composition of a new theme for Kenobi contingent upon two things: Ross arranging it and Williams having control over the spotting of it and the legacy themes.

I love Williams, but he really does consider Star Wars music to be his personal domain. I respect that. He deserves it, in my opinion. However, his spotting directives on Kenobi were awful, and that needs called out.

I do wonder if he would have allowed more legacy themes in the six episodes had Ross been adapting and writing the entirety of the music. I also wonder if he was offered the entire series himself, whether seriously or as a mere courtesy.

Christian



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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (3:14 a.m.) 

> Giacchino simply had to re-write parts of his score after it was written.

There is a treasure trove of (inside) information about the Rogue One issue (and other scores in franchises Williams is associated with) in the following thread over at JWFan: https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33716-john-powell-on-working-with-john-williams-for-solo/&do=findComment&comment=1804398


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AhN
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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (10:04 a.m.) 

> There is a treasure trove of (inside) information about the Rogue One
> issue (and other scores in franchises Williams is associated with) in the
> following thread over at JWFan:
> https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33716-john-powell-on-working-with-john-williams-for-solo/&do=findComment&comment=1804398

There's a lot going on in that thread, and most of the behind the scenes gossip is from one source, which means I have to stay a little skeptical. (The fact that the source later rage-quit the forum because people didn't believe his inside info doesn't help lol)


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (12:14 p.m.) 

> There is a treasure trove of (inside) information about the Rogue One
> issue (and other scores in franchises Williams is associated with) in the
> following thread over at JWFan:
> https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33716-john-powell-on-working-with-john-williams-for-solo/&do=findComment&comment=1804398

TIL people don’t like Giacchino’s splintered take on the Force theme. I found it quite fitting myself…


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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (2:20 p.m.) 

> TIL people don’t like Giacchino’s splintered take on the Force theme. I
> found it quite fitting myself…

Count me among the naysayers on that one. His treatment of that theme is Giacchino at his clunky, inelegant worst; fitting or not, the execution is just off.


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The Old Troll.   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (11:24 a.m.) 

> 'John Williams watched the whole show

This is the most shocking part, to me. I choose to believe he repaid them for the torture of it by trolling them...



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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (3:26 p.m.) 

> So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the
> Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay,
> we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to
> them.''

> There are some more details in the interview here:

> https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-interview/

Well, it seems like poor judgment on the part of everyone involved with the music for this series unfortunately.

I love Williams, but restricting the use of his themes in this show, when projects like Solo and The Mandalorian were about to do more with them, is baffling. Was Holt supposed to write new themes for characters that already had some, or just none at all?

And this quote from the article about the director just further proves the judgment around the use of the themes was wrong from the beginning.

And she was saying, "Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point."

Even without the use of the themes, Holt's music wasn't as compelling as it needed to be for Star Wars, whereas at least Giacchino's Rogue One was able to have some new memorable themes and a few standout action pieces, something I found lacking in this series.

I'm hoping they can use the experience from this series to make improvements going forward, because whatever is happening behind the scenes isn't working.


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Re: Here come the re-edits...   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (4:21 p.m.) 

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places,

This doesn't totally clear things up...but the interview as a whole definitely paints the picture that I suspected: behind the scenes of this show's post-production was a dumpster fire.

Not sure that 'blame' needs to be placed any one particular place other than on the corporate monstrosity that Disney has become that creates the structures that lead poor artistic decisions and poor artistic products. It's just sad. I feel for Natalie Holt for sure.

On a side note, the re-edits are here! Here's the re-scored final battle from Ep. 6:

https://youtu.be/OrMnD2uYw0I

This one's editing ranges from mediocre to pretty awesome. When the Imperial March kicks in on Vader's force ground slam it definitely tripped my fanboy trigger. big grin

I guess all that's left to do is watch these hacked-together edits and lament what could have been.

*sigh*

-Brendan



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e
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Re: Holt says Williams decided when his themes could be used in Obi-Wan   Sunday, June 26, 2022 (6:59 p.m.) 

> So, that clears that up. Here's the full quote:

> 'John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for
> his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the
> Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, 'Okay,
> we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to
> them.''

> There are some more details in the interview here:

> https://screenrant.com/obi-wan-kenobi-composer-natalie-holt-interview/

Man. What a mess.

But what I don't get is if John Williams trusts Ross and allowed his themes to be used in Episode 6 - why are some of Ross bits poorly-written as well. The final duel between Vader and Obi-Wan is all credited to Ross and it's horrible. Cheap choir, awful jungle percussion... was that really him?

Why no interpolation of Battle of Heroes or anything?

Also what Yoda theme??



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According to Southall, this is BS   Monday, June 27, 2022 (10:13 a.m.) 

So our very own James Southall tweeted, that we shouldn't believe these rumors.

So, James, if you read this...can you talk about what you know, or is this something you don't want to talk about? I mean, Jon mentioned for example that he knows some details regarding what certain non-RC "additional composers" wrote for certain scores opposed to the name on the album cover, but that he can't give details because this info was given in trust.

So obviously, if you are not allowed to bring light to this situation, I think we all understand, but if you are...please do? Because all of this is very confusing


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Re: According to Southall, this is BS   Monday, June 27, 2022 (5:46 p.m.) 

> So our very own James Southall tweeted, that we shouldn't believe these
> rumors.

His right!

-Erik-


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Re: According to Southall, this is BS   Tuesday, June 28, 2022 (1:26 a.m.) 

> His right!

> -Erik-

I love how I post an elongated question for clarification on that claim and then you just burst in, say "He's right" and leave xD

So yeah, I guess I should just copy the question, but this time directed at you?

"So, [Erik], if you read this...can you talk about what you know, or is this something you don't want to talk about? I mean, Jon mentioned for example that he knows some details regarding what certain non-RC "additional composers" wrote for certain scores opposed to the name on the album cover, but that he can't give details because this info was given in trust.

So obviously, if you are not allowed to bring light to this situation, I think we all understand, but if you are...please do? Because all of this is very confusing"

there smile


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  In Response to:
Bernhard H. Heidkamp
Re: According to Southall, this is BS   Tuesday, June 28, 2022 (6:41 a.m.) 

> I love how I post an elongated question for clarification on that claim
> and then you just burst in, say 'He's right' and leave xD

I read your original post carefully and I crafted my two words carefully as well. I just wanted to acknowledge that you should probably listen to James more so than anyone else in this situation. That's all I can say.

-Erik-



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