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  ScoreBoard Forum

  POTC: Dead Man's Chest further proves the theory...  
 
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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)


  Responses to this Message:
Christian Kühn
ScoreFan
Admiral Hull
Devin Rose
thw
  POTC: Dead Man's Chest further proves the theory...   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (1:05 p.m.) 

...that Hans Zimmer is slowly becoming tragically one-dimensional. Even within his own boundaries, he has hits and misses. This one's another miss.

Dead Man's Chest is a different score stylistically from the first one. Zimmer varies the rhythms, volume, and instrumentation a bit more. But the same crippling problem remains: it isn't swashbuckling music. Not only that, but Zimmer is still hopelessly in love with his heavy bass line mixing and usual insufferably simplistic French horn writing (does it really matter if it's real or synthetic anymore?) and abrasive layers of string chopping. Is this guy even capable of mature woodwind incorporation? Or is that not even an option given that his drenched mixing of the other sections would drown those players out?

Nice to hear the electric guitar getting its due playing time, of course...

You would think that with seven ghostwriters on this project, something original would actually come out of this. The trance remix at the end is an awkwardly effective refresher for tired ears. Unfortunately, Muppet Treasure Island still remains Zimmer's best music for the genre. And Erich Wolfgang Korngold is still rolling in that grave.


By the way, unrelated note... If you're interested in destroying the planet, consult with this comprehensive guide: https://qntm.org/destroy

I wonder what kind of music Zimmer would write for the "Total Existence Failure" theory.

Christian



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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.140.239.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen

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Christian Clemmensen
  This CANNOT be true!   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (1:14 p.m.) 

> By the way, unrelated note... If you're interested in destroying the
> planet, consult with this comprehensive guide: https://qntm.org/destroy I
> wonder what kind of music Zimmer would write for the "Total Existence
> Failure" theory.

I found the same page today by accident!! What is this? Telepathy?!

CK


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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn
  It's been a pretty hot news story the last few days.   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (1:37 p.m.) 

> I found the same page today by accident!! What is this? Telepathy?!

Not surprising... The guy updates that list every now and then, and the most recent update made syndicate news rounds.

We were all discussing the merits of these planetary destruction theories at work earlier this week. The guy does have a good sense of humor, no?

Christian



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ScoreFan
(santamonica-cuda4-24-55-43-198.vnnyca.adelphia.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen

  Responses to this Message:
Christian Clemmensen
Christian Clemmensen
  When is a ghostwriter not a ghostwriter?   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (1:50 p.m.) 

> You would think that with seven ghostwriters on this project, something
> original would actually come out of this.

Are they still "ghostwriters" if they're credited?

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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
ScoreFan
  Re: When is a ghostwriter not a ghostwriter?   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (2:07 p.m.) 

> Are they still "ghostwriters" if they're credited?

Maybe, maybe not. By dictionary definition, probably not.

However... I refer to them as "ghostwriters" for two reasons: First, the studio makes no attempt to advertise their participation. Their names are not on the outside of the album packaging, nor are they credited on the movie poster. The mass majority of listeners and viewers won't realize they exist. Second, their contributions are rarely attributed to individual parts of the score, so we rarely ever have proof regarding exactly who wrote what. That sounds awfully ghostly to me.

Does that notion not agree with you?

Somewhere, I think they legally have to indicate who wrote what... I might be wrong on that... but I'd love to see those breakdowns.

Christian



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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
ScoreFan

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Christian Kühn
Cheno
Nick
  Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (2:46 p.m.) 

First, just to toy with you... Does your post represent you individually, or Soundtrack.net?

I seem to recall that the use of pseudonyms is an non-Goldwasser-endorsed practice.

Either way, I'll address the following:

> Similarly, why does a 2006 pirate movie have to sound like a 1940s pirate movie?

Indeed, it doesn't have to. But when you have an established sound for that genre that has worked with great success in the past, you take big risks by straying too far from that sound. Erik Woods' response to this at Scorereviews.com was on the mark. The music just isn't that good, no matter the genre.

> I would argue, it doesn't have to, and it's simply stubbornness and a desire for
> nostalgia that some would bemoan something that is not-what-they-expect.

Who said I didn't expect it to turn out as it did?

I'm all in favor of innovation. When it works. Innovation makes my job of reviewing a lot more interesting.

Christian



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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.142.68.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Thursday, June 29, 2006 (2:52 p.m.) 

> First, just to toy with you... Does your post represent you individually,
> or Soundtrack.net?

> I seem to recall that the use of pseudonyms is an non-Goldwasser-endorsed
> practice.

I thought the "santamonica" in the IP was a bit conspicuous...

BTW, your comment about PotC 2 and Zimmer made its way over to another Board where our good friend Zimmeresque/Nautilus/Myotis is holding sway. I'd lock your doors at night if I were you, Christian!

CK

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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

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Christian Clemmensen

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Christian Clemmensen
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Friday, June 30, 2006 (12:28 a.m.) 

> Indeed, it doesn't have to. But when you have an established sound for
> that genre that has worked with great success in the past, you take big
> risks by straying too far from that sound. Erik Woods' response to this at
> Scorereviews.com was on the mark. The music just isn't that good, no
> matter the genre.

> Who said I didn't expect it to turn out as it did?

> I'm all in favor of innovation. When it works. Innovation makes my job of
> reviewing a lot more interesting.

So what you're saying is that having a swash-buckling score would have instantly improved the score, whether or not it actually worked in the film (because I don't feel that it particularly would in this situation, with both mediums having no further purpose than to entertain, and both succeeding in that perfectly)? If not, then I'm not quite sure why criticizing because of the lack of a stereotypical sound is necessary. It just seems awfully close-minded.


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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Sunday, July 2, 2006 (5:42 p.m.) 

> So what you're saying is that having a swash-buckling score would have
> instantly improved the score, whether or not it actually worked in the
> film?

That question is far too constraining to lead to a useful response.

> If not, then I'm not quite sure why criticizing because of the lack of a stereotypical sound is necessary.

There is no guarantee that a temp insertion of Cutthroat Island in POTC would have fared any better. But given how dismal and obnoxious the POTC scores have sounded to some people, a medium ground may have been a wise option for Zimmer to explore.

If you want to start a healthy debate, the question you ask is this: "Is Zimmer's talent strong enough to actually accomplish such a thing?"

Or "Could Zimmer actually write Cutthroat Island if he set his mind to it?"

His problems with one-dimensionality are causing some to wonder...

Christian



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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

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Christian Clemmensen

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Devin Rose
Christian Clemmensen
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Sunday, July 2, 2006 (9:53 p.m.) 

> If you want to start a healthy debate, the question you ask is this:
> "Is Zimmer's talent strong enough to actually accomplish such a
> thing?"

> Or "Could Zimmer actually write Cutthroat Island if he set his mind
> to it?"

> His problems with one-dimensionality are causing some to wonder...

No...because he's not John Debney. He's not Alan Silvestri. He's not Korngold. If you had Debney or Silvestri write scores for POTC (the initials could be used for another Debney score ), chances are they would write different-sounding scores. The sound in POTC is Zimmer's sound. If they didn't want Zimmer's sound,they wouldn't have hired Zimmer. And anything but Zimmer's sound wouldn't be all that popular with the franchise's target audience. Obviously, if it sounded like it was coming from the forties like many seem to want, it wouldn't sell much at all.

And I'm still trying to figure out why Black Pearl isn't swash-buckling. Oh well...

And this has been another inarticulate post from Cheno.


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Devin Rose
(pool-71-106-39-49.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (1:50 p.m.) 

Black Pearl isn't swashbuckling because most of it is comprised of abrasive militarized music, derived from Zimmer's previous military scores (The Rock, Crimson Tide, Peace Maker, etc). The slight alteration in instrumentation and excessive, sudden use of unisons are not enough to change what the music, essentially, already is.

Silverstri suppiled an amazing swashbuckling score to The Mummy Returns, which I didn't associate at all with '40's film music. I think his score was much more innovative and complex. Perhaps people associate swashbuckling music with old film music because there is a lack of it in contemporary swashbuckling films, like POTC.

Disney's and Bruckheimer's decision to go with Zimmer was a huge mistake. But, I recently read an article in which someone stated that a woman started crying at the Zimmer scoring session because of "how beautiful" she thought it was...

> No...because he's not John Debney. He's not Alan Silvestri. He's not
> Korngold. If you had Debney or Silvestri write scores for POTC (the
> initials could be used for another Debney score ), chances are they
> would write different-sounding scores. The sound in POTC is Zimmer's
> sound. If they didn't want Zimmer's sound,they wouldn't have hired Zimmer.
> And anything but Zimmer's sound wouldn't be all that popular with the
> franchise's target audience. Obviously, if it sounded like it was coming
> from the forties like many seem to want, it wouldn't sell much at all.

> And I'm still trying to figure out why Black Pearl isn't swash-buckling.
> Oh well...

> And this has been another inarticulate post from Cheno.


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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Devin Rose

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Devin Rose
Christian Clemmensen
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (2:02 p.m.) 

> Disney's and Bruckheimer's decision to go with Zimmer was a huge mistake.
> But, I recently read an article in which someone stated that a woman
> started crying at the Zimmer scoring session because of "how
> beautiful" she thought it was...

Yes, I'm sure they're just kicking themselves because of all the money they made off of that score. What a horrible decision to make a bestselling album that the entire target audience which would normally have no interest in film music can recognize after a couple notes. Let's all hate Bruckheimer for bringing so much more attention to this genre!

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Devin Rose
(pool-71-106-39-49.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:04 p.m.) 

I'm not sure where you're pulling the sarcam or 'hate Bruckheimer' comments from. Here's where Disney's logic concerning the hiring of Zimmer comes into play:

The two writers brought into complete the Pirates script re-invented the genre by incorporating the super-natural elements. From that one change, Disney believed they had a completely new genre which needed to be new in every aspect -- (wait until Disney starts to rip-off their own POTC franchise with their next chain of supernatural-period movies -- cause they're coming).

Keep in mind that Alan Silvestri was on the project. It wasn't until the filmmakers realized that in this *new* genre of supernatural swashbuckler that the only thing which hadn't changed was the music, which prompted the hiring of Zimmer. It was a mistake in that the classic swashbuckling music would have been perfect for what they were doing, and they would have certainlymade more money off of the album, according to the vast dissatisfaction of the first two scores so far.

I don't have anything against Bruckheimer. I think he's great at attaching himself to talented people and awesome projects, and somehow finds ways to make them even more intriguing.

As for audiences being able to rocognize the music after a couple of notes: you can easily attribute that to the fact that they've heard the music a thousand times before. When I used to watch Pirates at home, someone from my family would come running in and say "Turn back to The Rock/Crimson Tide -- Pirates are gay."

> Yes, I'm sure they're just kicking themselves because of all the money
> they made off of that score. What a horrible decision to make a
> bestselling album that the entire target audience which would normally
> have no interest in film music can recognize after a couple notes. Let's
> all hate Bruckheimer for bringing so much more attention to this genre!


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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Devin Rose

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Devin Rose
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:41 p.m.) 

> I'm not sure where you're pulling the sarcam or 'hate Bruckheimer'
> comments from.

I was merely commenting on you saying it was a bad decision on Disney's part, since it was so successful.

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Devin Rose
(pool-71-106-39-49.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (7:51 p.m.) 

> I was merely commenting on you saying it was a bad decision on Disney's
> part, since it was so successful.

I think they acted out of panick, considering that they pulled Silvestri at such a late point. Yeah, the score was successful (maybe not to the point it could have been had Silvestri done it), but I won't continue to speak in hypothetical terms.

Compare it to a similar decision of Disney's which resulted in the opposite: they chose not to release Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, which raked in tons of cash.

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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:08 p.m.) 

> Yes, I'm sure they're just kicking themselves because of all the money
> they made off of that score. What a horrible decision to make a
> bestselling album that the entire target audience which would normally
> have no interest in film music can recognize after a couple notes. Let's
> all hate Bruckheimer for bringing so much more attention to this genre!

It's not entirely the fault of the creator. Think of it like Walmart. Is it Walmart's fault that there are so many fat and stupid people that shop at their stores and clog their isles with overflowing shopping carts and fat, vomiting children? No, it's the fault of the fat and stupid people.

Likewise, look at many of the mainstream buyers of the first Pirates of the Caribbean score. They come here or go to Amazon.com and say it's "the best soundtrack of all time!" and thus confirm that it's the general stupidity of the public that's the problem.

Christian


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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

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Christian Clemmensen

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Christian Clemmensen
Carlton
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:33 p.m.) 

> It's not entirely the fault of the creator. Think of it like Walmart. Is
> it Walmart's fault that there are so many fat and stupid people that shop
> at their stores and clog their isles with overflowing shopping carts and
> fat, vomiting children? No, it's the fault of the fat and stupid people.

> Likewise, look at many of the mainstream buyers of the first Pirates of
> the Caribbean score. They come here or go to Amazon.com and say it's
> "the best soundtrack of all time!" and thus confirm that it's
> the general stupidity of the public that's the problem.

> Christian

Keeping in mind the meaning of mainstream, and the fact that they outnumber us by a large enough amount to make Rohan flee, the stupidity might lie with us. It's not them being stupid, it's them having different tastes.

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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Carlton
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:54 p.m.) 

> Keeping in mind the meaning of mainstream, and the fact that they
> outnumber us by a large enough amount to make Rohan flee, the stupidity
> might lie with us. It's not them being stupid, it's them having different
> tastes.

Their sheer numbers don't make them right. It simply makes them "mainstream." Keep in mind how stupid the average American really is. It amazes me each and every day to think that the United States is the most powerful nation on the planet. Do I have confidence in their appraisal of film music? Absolutely not.

Christian


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Carlton
(ac843eb4.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen
  Re: Could it be Luck   Tuesday, July 4, 2006 (9:07 a.m.) 

> Their sheer numbers don't make them right. It simply makesthem "mainstream." Keep in mind how stupid the average American really is. It amazes me each and > every day to think that the United States is the most powerful nation on the planet. Do I have confidence in their appraisal of film music? Absolutely not.

> Christian

I don't want to sound like a stupid conservative but maybe this nation is powerful because of...

The Progessive Liberal Elite

It amazes me each and every day to think that conservatism is becoming mainstream (see William H. Rehnquist ). Do I have confidence in conservative appraisals? Absolutely not. Do I have confidence in their appraisal of film music? Absolutely not.



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Carlton
(ac843eb4.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
Cheno

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Christian Kühn
  Re: The Mainstream   Tuesday, July 4, 2006 (9:02 a.m.) 

> Keeping in mind the meaning of mainstream, and the fact that they outnumber us by a large enough amount to make
> Rohan flee, the stupidity might lie with us. It's not them being stupid, it's them having different tastes.

No, the stupidity does not lie with us. It lies with them. Their ignorance becomes obvious just by examining the history of film scores. Yes, taste and numbers are important (and sometimes arbitrary), but I would put less emphasis on the total number and I would try to concentrate on the diversity of the number across (important) divergent groups, ie. the informed film score community that constantly studies a plethora of scores and "them." Ah, this is kind of stupid. Just ignore the numbers. You know, a lot of "informed" people voted for Dubya in two consecutive elections...

-CG

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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.136.199.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Carlton
  Re: The Mainstream   Tuesday, July 4, 2006 (2:24 p.m.) 

One human being = often an intelligent being.

Many human beings = a chaotic, dangerous and often stupid group of beings.

CK

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Christian Clemmensen
(bushisacriminal.filmtracks.com)

  In Response to:
Cheno
  Re: Also, let me ask you some questions in return...   Monday, July 3, 2006 (6:01 p.m.) 

> And I'm still trying to figure out why Black Pearl isn't swash-buckling.

The review makes it very clear. The score isn't sufficiently flamboyant.

Christian



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Nick
(12-202-55-230.client.insightbb.com)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen

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Christian Kühn
  Dan Goldwasser: BUSTED!?   Friday, June 30, 2006 (11:27 a.m.) 

> First, just to toy with you... Does your post represent you individually,
> or Soundtrack.net?

> I seem to recall that the use of pseudonyms is an non-Goldwasser-endorsed
> practice.

Dan says he never posts under any name but his own. Do you have actual evidence that this 'scorefan' was him?

It did sound like something he would say. He likes taking little shots at you.



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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.142.68.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Nick
  Re: Dan Goldwasser: BUSTED!?   Friday, June 30, 2006 (12:45 p.m.) 

> Dan says he never posts under any name but his own. Do you have actual
> evidence that this 'scorefan' was him?

> It did sound like something he would say. He likes taking little shots at
> you.

Well, seeing as "dgoldwas" posted something almost identically sounding at Score Reviews, and with the Santa Monica IP, it at least means that somebody associated with soundtrack.net posted here.

CK

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Admiral Hull
(dialup-4.255.225.228.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen

  Responses to this Message:
Cheno
  Re: POTC: Dead Man's Chest further proves the theory...   Friday, June 30, 2006 (11:41 a.m.) 

> the same crippling problem remains: it isn't swashbuckling music.

I always thought the first score was swashbuckling. I mean, if you think about it, it works in the swashbuckling scenes of the movies, so doesn't that make it "swashbuckling." If you listen to the first two minutes or so of the 4th movement of Dvorak's 9th Symphony, it sounds like high seas adventure music, and I whenever I hear music from The Curse of the Black Pearl, it reminds me of that symphony.

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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Admiral Hull
  Re: POTC: Dead Man's Chest further proves the theory...   Friday, June 30, 2006 (12:05 p.m.) 

> I always thought the first score was swashbuckling. I mean, if you think
> about it, it works in the swashbuckling scenes of the movies, so doesn't
> that make it "swashbuckling." If you listen to the first two
> minutes or so of the 4th movement of Dvorak's 9th Symphony, it sounds like
> high seas adventure music, and I whenever I hear music from The Curse
> of the Black Pearl
, it reminds me of that symphony.

That's a good point. I could never really figure out why, for instance, CutThroat Island was swash-buckling, but Pirates of the Carribean wasn't.


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Devin Rose
(pool-71-105-79-215.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen

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Christian Kühn
Devin Rose
  Re: POTC: Why the music turned out this way   Friday, June 30, 2006 (4:29 p.m.) 

Silvestri was taken off the first Pirates because he wouldn't align with Disney's, Bruckheimer's and Verbinski's efforts to try to modernize the music as part of creating an entirely new experience for pirate films, since the genre suffered for so long.

So, along with the incorporation of supernatural elements in the genre as well as a new franchise, Zimmer and Bruckheimer worked to modernize the music, as well. They wanted the music to retain swashbuckling tones, as long as they heavily used *modern* sounds: synths, electric guitars, etc.

The decision to overtake the music completely wasn't just Zimmer's choice. It's why Silvestri was let go in the first place. But, the score to Black Pearl dragged on as well as it did because of all the assistance from composers like Gregson-Williams. Through their efforts, the score retained swashbuckling music.

Now that Zimmer has overtaken the score completely, he pulled off what Disney wanted.

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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.146.118.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Devin Rose

  Responses to this Message:
Cheno
Devin Rose
  Re: POTC: Why the music turned out this way   Friday, June 30, 2006 (8:38 p.m.) 

> So, along with the incorporation of supernatural elements in the genre as
> well as a new franchise,

What?

> The decision to overtake the music completely wasn't just Zimmer's choice.
> It's why Silvestri was let go in the first place. But, the score to Black
> Pearl dragged on as well as it did because of all the assistance from
> composers like Gregson-Williams. Through their efforts, the score retained
> swashbuckling music.

Since when was HGW a part of PotC 1?! And how can something drag along "well"?

> Now that Zimmer has overtaken the score completely, he pulled off what
> Disney wanted.

Again: what?

CK

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Cheno
(ip68-104-246-80.ph.ph.cox.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn
  Re: POTC: Why the music turned out this way   Friday, June 30, 2006 (8:50 p.m.) 

> What?

> Since when was HGW a part of PotC 1?! And how can something drag along
> "well"?

> Again: what?

> CK

What he's saying is that pirate movies haven't been successful in who-knows-how-long. So Disney wanted to take things in a completely new direction both cinematically and musically. Obviously, they were extremely successful. The movie became bigger than anything this millenium outside of Lord of the rings and Harry Potter, and it's undeniably that the popular style of music wasn't a key contributor to this.

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Devin Rose
(pool-71-105-79-215.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn
  Re: POTC: Why the music turned out this way   Friday, June 30, 2006 (8:52 p.m.) 

> Since when was HGW a part of PotC 1?! And how can something drag along
> "well"?

He was another one of the uncredited composers whose past scores were minutely changed and transferred into Black Pearl. Don't tell me you haven't heard Shrek, Chicken Run, etc. in Pirates...

Bruckheimer and Disney wanted to totally re-invent the pirates genre. One of things they made sure to do was modernize it as much as they could in order for it to be appealing to today's audiences. They went along and fired Silvestri so that they could instead have a hip soundtrack with more contemporary music that is now listened to today.

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Devin Rose
(pool-71-106-39-49.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Devin Rose
  Re: POTC: Someone explain this to me   Sunday, July 2, 2006 (6:41 p.m.) 

Just a few weeks before finishing the score to Pirates 2, Zimmer stated that he actually had more of Pirates 3 done than Pirates 2. How is that possible? According to a recent statement by Gore Verbinski, 2/3's of Pirates 3 still hasn't been filmed.

Zimmer came off of Da Vinci Code and some animated film and went right into Pirates 2. There was no time to gather thoughts or creative momentum, or really determine which course should be taken for the film.

Pirates 2 meant nothing to Zimmer. Just another paycheck and opportunity to screw around with things he has already tried before.

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thw
(bbcache-13.singnet.com.sg)

  In Response to:
Christian Clemmensen
  Very unfotunate. Sad to hear this. *NM*   Friday, June 30, 2006 (6:53 p.m.) 



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