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  ScoreBoard Forum

  James Southall's review for PotC 2 is spot-on.  
 
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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.156.92.tisdip.tiscali.de)


  Responses to this Message:
Doug C.
Yavar Moradi
  James Southall's review for PotC 2 is spot-on.   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (1:58 a.m.) 

He explains really well what's the matter with this score and why he's so worried that film-music has been degenerating in recent years...

https://www.movie-wave.net/titles/pirates_caribbean2.html

Highly recommended!

Christian

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Doug C.
(pool-71-101-191-135.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn

  Responses to this Message:
Southall
docile
Nate U
  I would agree that POTC 2 is lazy, however....   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (6:50 a.m.) 

Da Vinci Code is the best score I have heard in several years. In fact, the score rises above the film. Just listen to the beauty of track 9. Much of it is unlike anything I have ever heard from Zimmer.

POTC 2, both the film and score, are mindless and lazy popcorn entertainment. I don't think Zimmer would argue with this statement. The film did not deserve any better than what Zimmer gave it, as the film was entirely derivative itself. Bruckheimer likes a certain sound and demands it.

I think you can't bash Zimmer, when he does some truly unique stuff for films that deserve it. For instance, Matchstick Men was not a popcorn film, so Zimmer decided to summon a little Nino Roto. And you have to give credit to Zimmer for truly elevating The Ring from being a standard horror score. When was the last time a composer put so much complexity into a HORROR FILM! Even Jerry Goldsmith's cherished score to The Omen was not even as complex. (A score which I admittedly dislike.)

People who give Zimmer a hard time really either have short term memory, or do not look at his entire body of work. Hell, people still bring up the Peacemaker as if thats the only thing he has ever done. Yes he does "copy" himself, but only when it is appropriate.

You can't tell me that the Horners, Williams, Elfmans, and Newmans of the world don't consistently make scores that sound similiar.

-Doug

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Southall
(webcacheb06a.cache.pol.co.uk)

  In Response to:
Doug C.

  Responses to this Message:
Doug C.
Nate U
  Re: I would agree that POTC 2 is lazy, however....   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (9:17 a.m.) 

> Da Vinci Code is the best score I have heard in several years. In fact,
> the score rises above the film. Just listen to the beauty of track 9. Much
> of it is unlike anything I have ever heard from Zimmer.

I think Da Vinci Code is Zimmer's strongest work since Thin Red Line. It's still a bit of a hodge-podge of old scores though (particularly Hannibal), but I don't really care in this case because the final results serve the film OK, and make a good album.

> POTC 2, both the film and score, are mindless and lazy popcorn
> entertainment. I don't think Zimmer would argue with this statement. The
> film did not deserve any better than what Zimmer gave it, as the film was
> entirely derivative itself. Bruckheimer likes a certain sound and demands
> it.

That's true... and that's what I don't like. The Greatest Story Ever Told was mindless and lazy popcorn entertainment... but listen to THAT score and tell me is't mindless and lazy.

> I think you can't bash Zimmer, when he does some truly unique stuff for
> films that deserve it. For instance, Matchstick Men was not a popcorn
> film, so Zimmer decided to summon a little Nino Roto. And you have to give
> credit to Zimmer for truly elevating The Ring from being a standard horror
> score. When was the last time a composer put so much complexity into a
> HORROR FILM! Even Jerry Goldsmith's cherished score to The Omen was not
> even as complex. (A score which I admittedly dislike.)

Wow... Your first two sentences are spot-on... but after that... well, all I can say is "wow." The Ring is NOT complex music. It's incredibly, almost unbelievably, simplistic music. I think it works pretty well... but it's been done a thousand times elsewhere, surely. Frequently, better.

> People who give Zimmer a hard time really either have short term memory,
> or do not look at his entire body of work. Hell, people still bring up the
> Peacemaker as if thats the only thing he has ever done. Yes he does
> "copy" himself, but only when it is appropriate.

I've got a large number of Zimmer albums, I've followed him for over a decade, and I don't have a short term memory. I give him a hard time because what he's doing is pushing the whole art of film music down into the gutter. In this junk popcorn music he writes, he's proving that films really don't need original scores, that music really isn't an important part of the dramatic needs of a film, that film music is just accompaniment, not improvement. For sure, he pulls some brilliant things out of the air sometimes, like The Thin Red Line or The Lion King, and I give him very much credit for that - but the bad aspects are SO bad.

> You can't tell me that the Horners, Williams, Elfmans, and Newmans of the
> world don't consistently make scores that sound similiar.

They do... and there's no problem with that. But they don't enforce the same score onto a film regardless of the unique needs of that film. Surely there's a big difference between, say, bits of Mars Attacks sounding like bits of Men In Black, than there is between bits of King Arthur sounding like bits of The Peacemaker.

Like I said in my review, I don't blame Zimmer for it - he's doing what he does, and it seems to be what Hollywood wants at the moment. But I still hate the direction it's taking film music in. Hopefully, someday it will recover - these things go in cycles - but there's been a sustained period, now, of the big summer blockbusters getting junk music which makes no attempt to do anything other than be there - a period unique in film music history, I think.

I must end by saying all the above is just my opinion, and I know there are very many people who love modern film music - and yet again, I must admit that however much I hate what it's led to, I enjoy most Zimmer albums a great deal.


Movie Wave
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Doug C.
(pool-71-101-218-231.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Southall
  I would agree that POTC 2 is lazy, however....   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (11:36 a.m.) 

> I think Da Vinci Code is Zimmer's strongest work since Thin Red Line. It's
> still a bit of a hodge-podge of old scores though (particularly Hannibal),
> but I don't really care in this case because the final results serve the
> film OK, and make a good album.

What did you think of the Pledge? I thought that was a very strong work. I also thought Hannibal is genius. I feel that Da Vinci Code is the evolution of Hannibal, the Pledge, The Ring, and a dash of Prince of Egypt. All great scores.

> That's true... and that's what I don't like. The Greatest Story Ever Told
> was mindless and lazy popcorn entertainment... but listen to THAT score
> and tell me is't mindless and lazy.

I think The Greatest Story Ever Told is sort of pre-popcorn film era. Comparing apples to apples, you would compare Prince of Egypt to that. Tell me the Burning Bush is not one of Zimmer's greatest works.

> Wow... Your first two sentences are spot-on... but after that... well, all
> I can say is "wow." The Ring is NOT complex music. It's
> incredibly, almost unbelievably, simplistic music. I think it works pretty
> well... but it's been done a thousand times elsewhere, surely. Frequently,
> better.

Maybe not complex in terms of writing, but complex in mood. Keep in mind this is a horror film. Not many horror films today try to use solo celloist piece, just orchestral hits to scare the heck out of people. The best horror scores in my opinion establish a good mood, like the Ring. Not just to punctuate a scare (aka Scream and any other horror film today). Also, listen to the end credits suite in Ring. That is a pretty well written piece.

> I've got a large number of Zimmer albums, I've followed him for over a
> decade, and I don't have a short term memory. I give him a hard time
> because what he's doing is pushing the whole art of film music down into
> the gutter. In this junk popcorn music he writes, he's proving that films
> really don't need original scores, that music really isn't an important
> part of the dramatic needs of a film, that film music is just
> accompaniment, not improvement. For sure, he pulls some brilliant things
> out of the air sometimes, like The Thin Red Line or The Lion King, and I
> give him very much credit for that - but the bad aspects are SO bad.

I think you are exhaggerating a bit. Every once in a while a composers just strikes out. I think his prior few blockbusters have been decent. King Arthur's score is better than the movie, a very fun listen. Last Samurai had moments of sheer beauty. Heck, I even thought Batman Begins score worked wonderfully in that film and can easily be identified with that film.

Look what happened to Elfman on Spiderman 2. Raimi basically tried to do a cut and paste to his first score (and actually did in some parts). Attack of the Clones the same deal. Maybe we should stop blaming the composers and start looking at the directors. How much time did Zimmer have to do POTC 2? According to the interviews I read, not much at all. Is that his fault?

I wish all film scoring could be like Lord of the Rings. Lots of time is spent and the director gets the composer in very early. But summer popcorn flicks typically are rush rush rush. Everyone suffers.

> They do... and there's no problem with that. But they don't enforce the
> same score onto a film regardless of the unique needs of that film. Surely
> there's a big difference between, say, bits of Mars Attacks sounding like
> bits of Men In Black, than there is between bits of King Arthur sounding
> like bits of The Peacemaker.

Why? Both are high testosterone adventures. (Actually I would take exception saying that both sound completely alike. I think King Arthur has a more epic feel). But on that note, should Planet of the Apes Main theme sound like the train theme in Mission Impossible? Should Batman's theme have similarities to the creatures in Nightbreed?

> Like I said in my review, I don't blame Zimmer for it - he's doing what he
> does, and it seems to be what Hollywood wants at the moment. But I still
> hate the direction it's taking film music in. Hopefully, someday it will
> recover - these things go in cycles - but there's been a sustained period,
> now, of the big summer blockbusters getting junk music which makes no
> attempt to do anything other than be there - a period unique in film music
> history, I think.

I think you are really worrying too much and not looking at the big picture. Just think of how many great scores have come out in the last few years. Look what James Newton Howard is doing with the M. Night movies (blockbusters). Look what Klaus Badelt did with The Promise. Lets not forget Shore for giving us one of the landmark (if not best) scores ever with Lord of the Rings.

While the may be more bad scores out there than before, it just because there are just more movies in general. Don't forget the great 4 to 5 star scores you review on your site.

Buck up happy camper!

-Doug


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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Southall

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
Southall
Cvija
Josh
Doug C.
  Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Friday, July 21, 2006 (3:58 p.m.) 

> I've got a large number of Zimmer albums, I've followed him for over a
> decade, and I don't have a short term memory. I give him a hard time
> because what he's doing is pushing the whole art of film music down into
> the gutter. In this junk popcorn music he writes, he's proving that films
> really don't need original scores, that music really isn't an important
> part of the dramatic needs of a film, that film music is just
> accompaniment, not improvement. For sure, he pulls some brilliant things
> out of the air sometimes, like The Thin Red Line or The Lion King, and I
> give him very much credit for that - but the bad aspects are SO bad.

> People who give Zimmer a hard time really either have short term memory,
> or do not look at his entire body of work. Hell, people still bring up the
> Peacemaker as if thats the only thing he has ever done. Yes he does
> "copy" himself, but only when it is appropriate.

Zimmer has limitations when it comes to film scoring...being self-taught I think makes these limitations more apparent when he is put in a position where he could concievably write a "genre" score, like Pirates of the Caribbean. James Horner is criticized for copying himself all the time, but he's got a doctorate in Music and he can write an old-school Latin-flavored Swashbuckling style score in the style of Korngold for a film like Mask of Zorro when he is called to do so. Zimmer took 2 weeks of keyboard lessons, but he's a darn creative fellow who isn't afraid to take risks or humble (or outspoken, or simply social) enough to bounce off others' own creativity. Thus intimidatingly effective conceptual scores like The Thin Red Line or wildly non-traditional and organically collaborative one-of-a-kind scores like Black Hawk Down. Zimmer excells as an artist, but only on his own terms. His own intuitive, conceptual world. Him, the film, and his keyboards, or a roomful of fellow musicians. Not him and the tradition expectations of genre-scoring. But when he can't create his own concept his music can suffer. The concept for the Pirates of Caribbean score is a big-loud-over the top Zimmer action extravaganza. Bruckheimer says so. Well, doesn't put Hans in the greatest position to be at his most creative, eh?

But, Zimmer still finds his little bits of inspiration. Listen to how Johnny Depp's swager permeates the initial idea of the new Jack Sparrow theme. Or, as Zimmer says, Davy Jones and his pirates remind him of a "Biker Gang" so Zimmer throws in this bizarre tritone heavy-metal rock beat in "The Kraken." Also one aspect I love most about those first couple "demos" of sorts on the beginning of the POTC:DMC album is the interplay between Zimmer at his keyboards and Martin Tilman on his Cello...it reminds me of the joyful energy you feel listening to Zimmer's keyboards bouncing off the guitar player (forget his name) in Drop Zone and vice-versa. I think of everything besides Tillman's cello as a single instrument being played by Zimmer, I guess. "Jack Sparrow" is one big duet. Thats how the music makes sense to me.

Zimmer is an untraditional film composer, both in the technical aspects of his music and his conceptual approaches to scoring motion pictures. (Even ones that have the genre-expectations like a Pirate movie)

I have a hard time disliking someone who is untraditional just for being untraditional. But you're right southall Zimmer can be a caricature of himself sometimes if he doesn't have a unique concept to work from. But it makes you wonder how the film music fans were reacting to someone like Bernard Herrmann's scores back in the day...doesn't the fact that Zimmer is controversial mean there is real substance to his contribution to film music? Or that he effects listeners in a certain way, be it positive or negative? I mean, Rite of Spring was booed off the stage, wasn't it?

N8

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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

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Nate U

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Olivier
  Re: Not supposed to be a question mark after that subject *NM*   Friday, July 21, 2006 (4:02 p.m.) 



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Olivier
(ast-lambert-152-1-74-169.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr)

  In Response to:
Nate U
  Re: Those snaky things have a sneaky way of popping up unexpectedly :p *NM* ? *NM*   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (2:03 a.m.) 



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Southall
(webcacheb08a.cache.pol.co.uk)

  In Response to:
Nate U

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Nate U
Pawel Stroinski
Olivier
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Friday, July 21, 2006 (4:57 p.m.) 

> I have a hard time disliking someone who is untraditional just for being
> untraditional. But you're right southall Zimmer can be a caricature of
> himself sometimes if he doesn't have a unique concept to work from. But it
> makes you wonder how the film music fans were reacting to someone like
> Bernard Herrmann's scores back in the day...doesn't the fact that Zimmer
> is controversial mean there is real substance to his contribution to film
> music? Or that he effects listeners in a certain way, be it positive or
> negative? I mean, Rite of Spring was booed off the stage, wasn't it?

Indeed - and I do sometimes wonder about this very point. But I don't think him being controversial means there is substance to his contribution to film music - I think he stirs passions because he works on such a large number of very big films, and his scores do not sit easily alongside the kind of thing that the majority of film music fans like to hear (though I accept that "majority" is becoming more of a questionable word, since more and more younger fans probably came into film music because of Zimmer).

I don't seriously think that in fifty years, people will be looking back at Pirates of the Caribbean 2 as being indicative of some sort of film music golden age, the way we look back on scores from fifty years ago as being exactly that. Zimmer is one of the few revolutionaries of film music - Steiner, Newman, North and Morricone certainly were, but I'm not sure about others. But I really don't think his revolution took film music in a positive direction, the way those others did. Perhaps it's just something that needs the benefit of time to appreciate, but I can't see that. All of those four gentlemen took film music to a higher intellectual plane than it was at before, whereas Zimmer is the first revolutionary to actually return it to a far less intellectual place. I don't see how that could possibly be a good thing.


Movie Wave
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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Southall

  Responses to this Message:
Christian Kühn
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (9:27 a.m.) 

> Indeed - and I do sometimes wonder about this very point. But I don't
> think him being controversial means there is substance to his contribution
> to film music - I think he stirs passions because he works on such a large
> number of very big films, and his scores do not sit easily alongside the
> kind of thing that the majority of film music fans like to hear (though I
> accept that "majority" is becoming more of a questionable word,
> since more and more younger fans probably came into film music because of
> Zimmer).

True, being as high-profile as Zimmer is definitely makes his scores more controversial...a lot of people hear them! And yes his music is not what more traditional film music fans want to hear, but that doesn't make much difference to me...I judge Zimmer scores with a different set of criteria than I do more traditional film composers, I guess.

> I don't seriously think that in fifty years, people will be looking back
> at Pirates of the Caribbean 2 as being indicative of some sort of film
> music golden age, the way we look back on scores from fifty years ago as
> being exactly that. Zimmer is one of the few revolutionaries of film music
> - Steiner, Newman, North and Morricone certainly were, but I'm not sure
> about others. But I really don't think his revolution took film music in a
> positive direction, the way those others did. Perhaps it's just something
> that needs the benefit of time to appreciate, but I can't see that. All of
> those four gentlemen took film music to a higher intellectual plane than
> it was at before, whereas Zimmer is the first revolutionary to actually
> return it to a far less intellectual place. I don't see how that could
> possibly be a good thing.

Good film music isn't necesarily about intellect, IMHO. Perhaps part of being a revolutionary artist is taking one's art to a plane which is not directly comparable to revolutions made in the past. Being a pioneering revolutionary is all about progression in a direction that hasn't been traveled before, afterall.

Time is the best of critics though! A lot of Zimmer's haven't been forgotten though, and I assume that bodes well for Zimmer's legacy.

N8

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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.166.208.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (7:41 a.m.) 

> True, being as high-profile as Zimmer is definitely makes his scores more
> controversial...a lot of people hear them! And yes his music is not what
> more traditional film music fans want to hear, but that doesn't make much
> difference to me...I judge Zimmer scores with a different set of criteria
> than I do more traditional film composers, I guess.

No arguing that, as it boils down to personal opinions and preferences in many cases. But truth is also that these days, a Zimmer score will be written to be a Zimmer score for, say, Batman Begins, but not to be a Batman Begins score by Zimmer (convoluted statement, I know). By that I mean, he's more concerned with doing HIS thing instead of doing what would be appropriate for a film.

Howard Shore has made a great statement that he writes scores that fit their respective films and would not fit in another environment, so to speak. I think when you do that and still can retain your own stylistics etc. and enhancing the film at the same time, you're doing the best job possible. I have a feeling that HanZ isn't doing that a lot recently.

> Good film music isn't necesarily about intellect, IMHO. Perhaps part of
> being a revolutionary artist is taking one's art to a plane which is not
> directly comparable to revolutions made in the past. Being a pioneering
> revolutionary is all about progression in a direction that hasn't been
> traveled before, afterall.

Not necessarily, agreed, but the best results of great film music in my opinion are intellectual ones. Being revolutionary doesn't have to be a bad thing, but as we all know, there's always the chance of it leading into a dead-end. And then what?

> Time is the best of critics though! A lot of Zimmer's haven't been
> forgotten though, and I assume that bodes well for Zimmer's legacy.

True that. But of all the MV-artists and their scores, there are only a handful that have stood the test of time so far and have a chance of keeping to do so. And 90% are scores that have been composed by Zimmer (almost) by himself. You name Thin Red Line and Black Hawk Down (which I detest). I name The Lion King. Others may name Gladiator, Backdraft, Prince of Egypt. But I highly doubt that many of his recent scores, from Batman Begins over King Arthur (which I love) to the PotC scores, will stand the test of time.

> N8

You cool over there?

Christian

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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn

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Yavar Moradi
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (11:28 a.m.) 

> No arguing that, as it boils down to personal opinions and preferences in
> many cases. But truth is also that these days, a Zimmer score will be
> written to be a Zimmer score for, say, Batman Begins, but not to be a
> Batman Begins score by Zimmer (convoluted statement, I know). By that I
> mean, he's more concerned with doing HIS thing instead of doing what would
> be appropriate for a film.

Yeah, like many strongly-established film composers, Zimmer can get away with just doing "his thing," aka using his usual tricks in a situation that may have been better served by pushing himself to use new tricks. Batman Begins I think works fine as a film score, but I agree there were times it would have benefited from Zimmer pushing himself a little harder for new ground. Not that he didn't to an extent, mind you. The same could be said for a composer like Thomas Newman, who I think has tendency to "do his thing" for just about any movie, and he is established enough (and talented enough) to get away with it.

> Howard Shore has made a great statement that he writes scores that fit
> their respective films and would not fit in another environment, so to
> speak. I think when you do that and still can retain your own stylistics
> etc. and enhancing the film at the same time, you're doing the best job
> possible. I have a feeling that HanZ isn't doing that a lot recently.

Heheh, well I must say every Shore score I hear now sounds like Middle Earth (I guess thats hard to avoid) but I respect Shore more as a film composer the more I hear of him. You are forgetting other recent Zimmer scores though like Spanglish or The Weather Man, which I think do a terrific job of have an identity solely within their films.

> Not necessarily, agreed, but the best results of great film music in my
> opinion are intellectual ones. Being revolutionary doesn't have to be a
> bad thing, but as we all know, there's always the chance of it leading
> into a dead-end. And then what?

True, Kuhni. Theres some underlying spirit to what Zimmer does that I sure *hope* won't be dead ends, but there may be many other approaches to Zimmer's film scoring which younger composers won't take inspiration from...

> True that. But of all the MV-artists and their scores, there are only a
> handful that have stood the test of time so far and have a chance of
> keeping to do so. And 90% are scores that have been composed by Zimmer
> (almost) by himself. You name Thin Red Line and Black Hawk Down (which I
> detest). I name The Lion King. Others may name Gladiator, Backdraft,
> Prince of Egypt. But I highly doubt that many of his recent scores, from
> Batman Begins over King Arthur (which I love) to the PotC scores, will
> stand the test of time.

MV (or RC these days) I have issues with...I'm not against the idea, but I do have issues with it being used in a compromising way. I also wish Zimmer would score a film completely himself, but I also think some great scores have come from the fact he didn't. I go both ways on the solo-Zimmer vs. Zimmer and pals. I think it depends on the project. Pirates of the Caribbean? Solo Zimmer would be best in my opinion, at least with the same concept and approach as the score we have.

> You cool over there?

Sure thing! Back home in Maine for the summer. Just went on tour with my band, (met up with Kevin and Joe Irvin on the road) and am now working and listening yourself? Has Lava-Man reached his full powers?

N8



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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Nate U

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Yavar Moradi
  I'm pretty much anti-Zimmer but I do like Spanglish quite a bit.   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (11:24 p.m.) 

Worked very well in the film and is pretty enjoyable on disc too.

Yavar

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Yavar Moradi
  Did I mention Spanglish? Spanglish, Spanglish, Spanglish...   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (11:27 p.m.) 

Yeah, it might not sound good but I'm telling you guys, you should really see this film if you haven't.

Yavar

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Pawel Stroinski
(dlv101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)

  In Response to:
Southall
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (2:53 p.m.) 

> Indeed - and I do sometimes wonder about this very point. But I don't
> think him being controversial means there is substance to his contribution
> to film music - I think he stirs passions because he works on such a large
> number of very big films, and his scores do not sit easily alongside the
> kind of thing that the majority of film music fans like to hear (though I
> accept that "majority" is becoming more of a questionable word,
> since more and more younger fans probably came into film music because of
> Zimmer).

Hmm, I don't think that The Thin Red Line, Backdraft, even Black Rain or Crimson Tide (the way it works in film has never been really explained and I think it's due to taking no point of view in the conflict). It could be argued if his Oscar for Lion King was deserved (I for one think it wasn't due to the Mission rehash, Mozart could sue, too), but still the score did it job more than well, and it brought many people into the genre.

Zimmer has no chance for writing a "genre score" for Bruckheimer. It's as possible as Korngold writing an MV score in the 30s (there were no synthesizers and no 80s rock). It's not about the fact that Zimmer can't pull out a classical sounding action score, though I would agree that he couldn't, for the sole case of Peacemaker, which is a Prokofiev wannabe, but it's about what Bruckheimer wants. If PotC 2 shows something new for Zimmer is better (yes, better) orchestrations, like in Jack Sparrow which got largely unmentioned in your score. Pity, because I, for one, think that this theme belongs to Zimmer's best in any genre. And it's as swashbuckling as he could get.

> I don't seriously think that in fifty years, people will be looking back
> at Pirates of the Caribbean 2 as being indicative of some sort of film
> music golden age, the way we look back on scores from fifty years ago as
> being exactly that. Zimmer is one of the few revolutionaries of film music
> - Steiner, Newman, North and Morricone certainly were, but I'm not sure
> about others. But I really don't think his revolution took film music in a
> positive direction, the way those others did. Perhaps it's just something
> that needs the benefit of time to appreciate, but I can't see that. All of
> those four gentlemen took film music to a higher intellectual plane than
> it was at before, whereas Zimmer is the first revolutionary to actually
> return it to a far less intellectual place. I don't see how that could
> possibly be a good thing.

Well, they won't remember Pirates of the Caribbean 2. But I still think The Thin Red Line, Crimson Tide, Prince of Egypt, even Gladiator and Hannibal, maybe Da Vinci Code. I think actually Zimmer is a pretty intellectual composer in his approach. And THAT may be a reason of his simplicity too. Simple underscore (in a technique which he devised too, his underscore is of big influence too, since TTRL and Gladiator) may be also a way of fighting the problem of too much music in a film.

Pawel


My Polish Review Website
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Olivier
(ast-lambert-152-1-74-169.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr)

  In Response to:
Southall
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (2:18 a.m.) 

I suppose you know that joke (or a variant of it):

A man is sitting at a bar, drinking, and he says to no one in particular, "A man can spend his life building bridges. Do they call him John the Bridge Builder? No. A man can spend his life raising crops. Do they call him John the Farmer? No. But you one goat . . ."

I'm not sure what will remembered in 50 years: the bridges or the goat?
Zimmer has shown several times he can write some really very very good (even excellent) music in various styles (ethnic, full-blown orchestra, "minimalist", romantic, ...) (The Thin Red Line, Spanglish, The House of Spirits, The Lion King, The Prince of Egypt, Muppet Treasure Island, ...), with great themes () plus some mighty exciting "modern" action music (Broken Arrow), but what is constantly put forward (often by people who only know the Brukheimer side) is his MV style & company-- the goat (okay, goats), which he often merely "overproduced", laying downn the foundations and letting others complete the score.

He may not be a Herrmann or a Goldsmith, but he is no Damien either. He can be really good, but has been too successful in one field for his own good.

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Cvija
(kds1-058.ptt.yu)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Christian Kühn
Nate U
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (2:49 p.m.) 

>I mean, Rite of Spring was booed off the stage, wasn't it?

I doubt that any of the Zimmer's scores had been booed in the theatres.

Cvija


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Christian Kühn
(p85.212.142.217.tisdip.tiscali.de)

  In Response to:
Cvija

  Responses to this Message:
Cvija
  Cvija, hello! Long time, no see...how are things with you? *NM*   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (4:16 p.m.) 



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Cvija
(kds1-058.ptt.yu)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn
  Re: Cvija, hello! Long time, no see...how are things with you?   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (4:59 p.m.) 

Hey Kuhni! Indeed, I haven't posted in ages here...

I am fine, finishing the uni, will have the BA in archaeology by the beginning of this September. Also, waiting for the trip to Ohrid Lake by the end of the month.

And these days listening to MediEvil Resurrection and Lady in the Water.

Are you still using the same adress on MSN? Haven't seen you there in a long time. Mine is the same, cvija1234@hotmail.com, in case you lost it.

How are you these days?

Cvija

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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Cvija

  Responses to this Message:
Cvija
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (11:06 a.m.) 

> I doubt that any of the Zimmer's scores had been booed in the theatres.

True, but people don't pay as much attention to film music I'm afraid...does booing on the scoreboard count?

N8

NP: Dark City


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Cvija
(kds1-058.ptt.yu)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Pawel Stroinski
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Monday, July 24, 2006 (4:46 a.m.) 

> True, but people don't pay as much attention to film music I'm
> afraid...

Yeah, that was one of the points in my sentence.

>does booing on the scoreboard count?

I don't think that Zimmer is booed that much among film music fans.

NP: Dinotopia.


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Pawel Stroinski
(dlx69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)

  In Response to:
Cvija

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Monday, July 24, 2006 (7:05 a.m.) 

> Yeah, that was one of the points in my sentence.

> I don't think that Zimmer is booed that much among film music fans.

> NP: Dinotopia.

Taking into account that much of recent fans of the genre were brought into it by Zimmer he is not booed so much, no. And even among some traditionalists he may be taken as a guilty pleasure.

I believe the problem lies somewhere else. And it's a problem both of Zimmer's growth as a composer and the fact of who is brought in. The problem is Jerry Bruckheimer.

From the very firing of Silvestri we knew that Jerry Bruckheimer will never allow a traditional genre score from any composer. That's what Silvestri wanted to do and he got sacked. Given some preferences of the producer (Dan Goldwasser said once he is a woodwind hater, how can you bring in a swashbuckler WITHOUT wind section, huh?), Zimmer sticks to his comfort not to lose his job, not to mention he wasn't a fan of the genre ("I never cared for Korngold"). So it's not about his comfort zone, since getting a Bruckheimer job already sets the sound of the score.

Crimson Tide may have brought many fans into the genre (not as much as The Rock maybe though) and it may have been a revolution in film music (though again the definite MV score is The Rock and setting comparisons to it, when it comes to the Pirates scores is not so wrong as it may sound at the first time. What else? The Thin Red Line?), but it brought a problem. Bruckheimer's preferences make a submarine thriller, a King Arthur epic and a pirate swashbuckler sound the same. This may make an assignment like that a thankless job. And I believe actually King Arthur is one of weakest Zimmer action scores, not the best as Kuhni says. To the best I, for a change, take the second PotC score.

Bruckheimer's preferences largely set the sound of Zimmer in the action genre. When he tried to do a more classical action score with Peacemaker (with Prokofiev influences, not to mention first Holst references), he was liked I think only by his fans, even I think it's a Zimmer failure due to his orchestration problems. He stopped in between a more classical action score and his traditional MV sound and eventually these MV cues sounded the best, the rest of the score being a convoluted mix between classical references, MV sound, rejected Crimson Tide underscore and a beautiful dramatic ethnic theme which still belongs to his highlights. After Peacemaker he vanished from the action genre for a longer time with writing few minutes into Chill Factor before leaving it to Powell, Badelt and, as far as I remember, Rona. In 1998 we had Prince of Egypt (an epic score) and The Thin Red Line. In 2000 came a director that has strange gusto when it comes to film scores Ridley Scott. Too, you don't write a swashbuckler for John Woo. Pearl Harbor was another Bruckheimer, Black Hawk Down is an experiment (and both Ridley Scott and Bruckheimer), Tears of the Sun had not much action music and seemed an orchestral and more traditional version of BHD. THe Last Samurai dropped wind section for color reason (he wanted the score to lack color, to represent Japanese culture). See the picture?

There weren't many action scores for Zimmer to develop. He did it with Pearl Harbor slightly, which presented a new action music style, much more dramatic and not-so-rock influenced.



My Polish Review Website
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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Pawel Stroinski

  Responses to this Message:
Pawel Stroinski
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Monday, July 24, 2006 (1:06 p.m.) 

> Taking into account that much of recent fans of the genre were brought
> into it by Zimmer he is not booed so much, no. And even among some
> traditionalists he may be taken as a guilty pleasure.

True. Zimmer I think gets lot of booing AND cheering...definitely more cheering from the more casual film music fans.

> I believe the problem lies somewhere else. And it's a problem both of
> Zimmer's growth as a composer and the fact of who is brought in. The
> problem is Jerry Bruckheimer.

He sure doesn't help push Zimmer's creativity!

> From the very firing of Silvestri we knew that Jerry Bruckheimer will
> never allow a traditional genre score from any composer. That's what
> Silvestri wanted to do and he got sacked. Given some preferences of the
> producer (Dan Goldwasser said once he is a woodwind hater, how can you
> bring in a swashbuckler WITHOUT wind section, huh?), Zimmer sticks to his
> comfort not to lose his job, not to mention he wasn't a fan of the genre
> ("I never cared for Korngold"). So it's not about his comfort
> zone, since getting a Bruckheimer job already sets the sound of the score.

Right, serve the Boss. Thats why I said the major problem with the Pirates' scores isn't Zimmer himself, but the fact Bruckheimer already has a concept for the music he wants Zimmer to use...and Zimmer uses it. (wether he should or not is another question) Bruckheimer is a business man, not an artist. I think everyone can agree on that.

> Crimson Tide may have brought many fans into the genre (not as much as The
> Rock maybe though) and it may have been a revolution in film music (though
> again the definite MV score is The Rock and setting comparisons to it,
> when it comes to the Pirates scores is not so wrong as it may sound at the
> first time. What else? The Thin Red Line?), but it brought a problem.
> Bruckheimer's preferences make a submarine thriller, a King Arthur epic
> and a pirate swashbuckler sound the same. This may make an assignment like
> that a thankless job. And I believe actually King Arthur is one of weakest
> Zimmer action scores, not the best as Kuhni says. To the best I, for a
> change, take the second PotC score.

Pirates has some kickin' action tunes, but too much cut-and-paste in the film. The action ideas in "Jack Sparrow" and "The Kraken" are good rollicking fun, but they are just cut-and-pasted for the actual music in the film. ("Wheel of Fortune") King Arthur doesn't have as much of that....its simplistic perhaps, moreso than Pirates, but it cooks right along in an epic, giant, choir, battle-of-the-gods sort of way

> Bruckheimer's preferences largely set the sound of Zimmer in the action
> genre. When he tried to do a more classical action score with Peacemaker
> (with Prokofiev influences, not to mention first Holst references), he was
> liked I think only by his fans, even I think it's a Zimmer failure due to
> his orchestration problems. He stopped in between a more classical action
> score and his traditional MV sound and eventually these MV cues sounded
> the best, the rest of the score being a convoluted mix between classical
> references, MV sound, rejected Crimson Tide underscore and a beautiful
> dramatic ethnic theme which still belongs to his highlights.

Personally I think The Peacemaker is a ing awesome Zimmer action score, he combined his unqiue style and 'tude he had developed over the past decade, but than pushed it further and matured with some chromatic and orchestration sophistication. He hasn't matched it since...intentionally, I believe.

After
> Peacemaker he vanished from the action genre for a longer time with
> writing few minutes into Chill Factor before leaving it to Powell, Badelt
> and, as far as I remember, Rona. In 1998 we had Prince of Egypt (an epic
> score) and The Thin Red Line. In 2000 came a director that has strange
> gusto when it comes to film scores Ridley Scott. Too, you don't write a
> swashbuckler for John Woo. Pearl Harbor was another Bruckheimer, Black
> Hawk Down is an experiment (and both Ridley Scott and Bruckheimer), Tears
> of the Sun had not much action music and seemed an orchestral and more
> traditional version of BHD. THe Last Samurai dropped wind section for
> color reason (he wanted the score to lack color, to represent Japanese
> culture). See the picture?

I'll agree with all of that. Zimmer felt he exausted the whole "car chase" thing and explored other avenues. Recently he's been more apt to dip his toes into the action genre, but never if you notice has there been a strait-out action film.

> There weren't many action scores for Zimmer to develop. He did it with
> Pearl Harbor slightly, which presented a new action music style, much more
> dramatic and not-so-rock influenced.

Zimmer's action music evolution I think can best be represented by the "Cameron Border Post" cue from Tears of the Sun...still pulsating and pounding, but as you say much more dramatic. If you notice, the whole cue with only the orchestra parts is a string elegy. The "action" is supplied only by everything.

N8

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Pawel Stroinski
(dlx69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)

  In Response to:
Nate U
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Monday, July 24, 2006 (3:54 p.m.) 

> True. Zimmer I think gets lot of booing AND cheering...definitely more
> cheering from the more casual film music fans.

Yep, but even Southall, a Golden Age fan says that Zimmer is great fun for him. Perhaps he doesn't want to admit that. The only guy seeming to have problems with Zimmer is nobody else but Clem, who may praise any film score just because it's not by Zimmer.

> He sure doesn't help push Zimmer's creativity!

Yeah, as I said. A traditional orchestral score for Jerry B. is like Korngold writing Crimson Tide .

> Right, serve the Boss. Thats why I said the major problem with the
> Pirates' scores isn't Zimmer himself, but the fact Bruckheimer already has
> a concept for the music he wants Zimmer to use...and Zimmer uses it.
> (wether he should or not is another question) Bruckheimer is a business
> man, not an artist. I think everyone can agree on that.

Well I think that he's got a spark of intelligence with Veronica Guerin (not your everyday blockbuster) and his TV series, which seem pretty intelligent.

> Pirates has some kickin' action tunes, but too much cut-and-paste in the
> film. The action ideas in "Jack Sparrow" and "The
> Kraken" are good rollicking fun, but they are just cut-and-pasted for
> the actual music in the film. ("Wheel of Fortune") King Arthur
> doesn't have as much of that....its simplistic perhaps, moreso than
> Pirates, but it cooks right along in an epic, giant, choir,
> battle-of-the-gods sort of way

That's why I dislike King Arthur. It gets pretentious.

> Personally I think The Peacemaker is a ing awesome Zimmer action score,
> he combined his unqiue style and 'tude he had developed over the past
> decade, but than pushed it further and matured with some chromatic and
> orchestration sophistication. He hasn't matched it since...intentionally,
> I believe.

My problem with Peacemaker is about those orchestrations. The winds don't always mesh well with the rest. Zimmer probably wanted to write some kind of a Goldsmith homage (those 7/8 cues and the atonal cue in Chase when Clooney hangs suffocating from the chopper), work around dissonance (it's a pretty dissonant score) and add more classical references (Prokofiev, Holst). But if we were to discuss references, well. The Final Countdown (by Europe) doesn't work with Romeo and Juliet. And that's what Zimmer tries to do.

> I'll agree with all of that. Zimmer felt he exausted the whole "car
> chase" thing and explored other avenues. Recently he's been more apt
> to dip his toes into the action genre, but never if you notice has there
> been a strait-out action film.

Yep. With TTRL Zimmer matured. And people seem to forget that. Not to mention comparing Spanglish to The Rock. Somewhat those smaller projects seem overlooked. And often much better than the mainstream.

> Zimmer's action music evolution I think can best be represented by the
> "Cameron Border Post" cue from Tears of the Sun...still
> pulsating and pounding, but as you say much more dramatic. If you notice,
> the whole cue with only the orchestra parts is a string elegy. The
> "action" is supplied only by everything.

How about "Red Warrior"?

> N8



My Polish Review Website
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Josh
(hlfxns01bbf-142177229239.ns.aliant.net)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
Jorge Núñez
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (6:42 p.m.) 

> Zimmer is an untraditional film composer, both in the technical aspects of
> his music and his conceptual approaches to scoring motion pictures. (Even
> ones that have the genre-expectations like a Pirate movie)

> I have a hard time disliking someone who is untraditional just for being
> untraditional. But you're right southall Zimmer can be a caricature of
> himself sometimes if he doesn't have a unique concept to work from. But it
> makes you wonder how the film music fans were reacting to someone like
> Bernard Herrmann's scores back in the day...doesn't the fact that Zimmer
> is controversial mean there is real substance to his contribution to film
> music? Or that he effects listeners in a certain way, be it positive or
> negative? I mean, Rite of Spring was booed off the stage, wasn't it?

I really hope you're not comparing Zimmer and his power anthems with a film scoring artist like Hermann, much less Stavinsky, whose works will still be performed and marvelled at when an algorithm has been invented to construct Zimmer-esque action scores automatically.

Anyway, you touch on the problem - neither of the Pirates scores (okay, I haven't actually heard the second one, but I doubt it's very different by any indication...) amounts to much in the way of an original concept. Stock progressions and themes along with the standard (and increasingly dated-sounding) electronics do not make for particularly interesting music.

But to take the "controversial -> real substance" argument at face value, we'd then conclude that John Cage's music (well, pieces) has substance, would we not? Substance in this case would seem to imply a sort of artistry or unique expression. At this point, the standard Zimmer score has little of either. When it comes to considering the substance of creative works, do you think people will still be listening to Zimmer action scores in 25 years? Fifty years? Of course, the same could be asked of *any* film music, but where the music of Williams and, yes, even Horner, has long since entered the public consciousness (and the concert hall, at least for pops concerts), I see Zimmer's more standard fare as merely ephemeral.


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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Josh
  Re: Laying the Zimmer-basher smackdown just like old times?   Sunday, July 23, 2006 (11:04 a.m.) 

Josh! Good to see I can still bring you out of the woodwork

> I really hope you're not comparing Zimmer and his power anthems with a
> film scoring artist like Hermann, much less Stavinsky, whose works will
> still be performed and marvelled at when an algorithm has been invented to
> construct Zimmer-esque action scores automatically.

and Really what I'm trying to say is that Zimmer is *not* comparable in a direct sense to Herrmann or Stravinsky, but they *are* examples of controversial composers in their own time, but have gone on to become held in high regard. (actually, I don't know if Herrmann was especially controversial in his own time, but he was quite different from most other film composers from what I know)

>

> Anyway, you touch on the problem - neither of the Pirates scores (okay, I
> haven't actually heard the second one, but I doubt it's very different by
> any indication...) amounts to much in the way of an original concept.
> Stock progressions and themes along with the standard (and increasingly
> dated-sounding) electronics do not make for particularly interesting
> music.

Creative use of electronics will never sound "dated." The first pirates of the Caribbean score I don't particularly like that much...so I don't really want to defend it, however portions of the new score I think are much better, because Zimmer has written a lot more of it. Also see in my previous message where I say: "But when he can't create his own concept his music can suffer. The concept for the Pirates of Caribbean score is a big-loud-over the top Zimmer action extravaganza. Bruckheimer says so. Well, doesn't put Hans in the greatest position to be at his most creative, eh?"

> But to take the "controversial -> real substance" argument at
> face value, we'd then conclude that John Cage's music (well, pieces) has
> substance, would we not? Substance in this case would seem to imply a sort
> of artistry or unique expression. At this point, the standard Zimmer score
> has little of either. When it comes to considering the substance of
> creative works, do you think people will still be listening to Zimmer
> action scores in 25 years? Fifty years? Of course, the same could be asked
> of *any* film music, but where the music of Williams and, yes, even
> Horner, has long since entered the public consciousness (and the concert
> hall, at least for pops concerts), I see Zimmer's more standard fare as
> merely ephemeral.

Well, no one can know for sure for another 25 or 50 years. Also Zimmer's music simply doesn't work in the concert hall played by a conventional orchestra, because Zimmer rarely writes for a conventional orchestra. (Unlike composers like Williams or Horner) When it comes to entering public consciousness, I'll admit no one beats Williams, but Zimmer has had just as much impact with the general public as Horner has IMHO, (People bought the Titanic soundtrack mostly for the song, and a lot of people have bought the gladiator soundtrack) and Zimmer has had more impact I think on the state of film music.

N8

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Jorge Núñez
(212.128.138.34)

  In Response to:
Josh
  Re: Let´s write about music....   Monday, July 24, 2006 (2:55 p.m.) 

> I really hope you're not comparing Zimmer and his power anthems with a
> film scoring artist like Hermann, much less Stavinsky, whose works will
> still be performed and marvelled at when an algorithm has been invented to
> construct Zimmer-esque action scores automatically.

>

Let´s see if I understand it: When someone´s music is performed for years to come or people marvel at them (for the work´s complexity, I assume) means that the music is good?

So, when I go to a classical concert, and 1 out of 3 pieces is from a classical composer of the XXth century whose music nobody in the hall can´t stand for more than 5 minutes, I have to assume that the music is good?

Probably is. But I still don´t see how.

The only thing I know is that Saint-Saëns went to the premiere of "Sacre du Primptemps" (Sp?) to Paris and he didn´t like it a bit.
I have to assume that Saint-Saëns knew more about music than me (and more than a lot of people I know) and that even though he was able to appreciate Stravinky´s piece from a technical standpoint (something I´m not able to) he didn´t like it either.

More than probably he was as conservative for music as I am myself, but I´d have liked to know his opinion about music being "something to admire to" because its perdurability or complexity.

> Anyway, you touch on the problem - neither of the Pirates scores (okay, I
> haven't actually heard the second one, but I doubt it's very different by
> any indication...) amounts to much in the way of an original concept.

In fact when I saw the first film and during a sword fight (I think. I don´t remember it properly) I heard The Rock, I thought that the music sucked big deal. Which, now that I think about it, was perfect for the movie, because it also sucked a lot.

But, yeah, I hated the music.

I understand why people complain.... but sometimes I guess people complain also about composer´s styles. And let´s assume no one is objective about music. I can´t stand Williams´ music to listen to on CDs. It´s his STYLE, because it always sounds to Williams to me. On the other hand, I love Thomas Newman´s style, who lots of people complain of being always the same.

> Stock progressions and themes along with the standard (and increasingly
> dated-sounding) electronics do not make for particularly interesting
> music.

That´s almost true. It´s not particularly interesting when you have heard the same thing 100 times in 100 different films. But sure the first time it was used, it was interesting.

> But to take the "controversial -> real substance" argument at
> face value, we'd then conclude that John Cage's music (well, pieces) has
> substance, would we not? Substance in this case would seem to imply a sort
> of artistry or unique expression.

Yeah. And also Stockhaussen (sp?) piece for I don´t remember which instruments and plane engine roaring in a hangar must be considered a sort of artistry and unique expression. Anyhow, sure most people don´t consider it even music, nor worthhearing.

> At this point, the standard Zimmer score has little of either. When it comes > to considering the substance of creative works, do you think people will
> still be listening to Zimmer action scores in 25 years? Fifty years?

And that´s the curious thing: People don´t only listen to music for the substance of creative works. Folk/Different cultures´music (at least the 6th folk tune you hear from the same place) are not very creative. And people still like them, though it´s only ordinary music.

> Of course, the same could be asked
> of *any* film music, but where the music of Williams and, yes, even
> Horner, has long since entered the public consciousness (and the concert
> hall, at least for pops concerts), I see Zimmer's more standard fare as
> merely ephemeral.

I don´t know what to think: must I assume that Williams´and Horner´s music have entered the public consciousness and the concert hall because their:

a) creativity?
b) popularity of the films they were written for?
c) complexity?
d) people´s ability to remember the tunes?

I can see that Horner´s and Williams standard themes are usually more complex than Zimmer´s ones, but that doesn´t make them less "ephemeral". As I see it. most of a composer´s music that is remembered has much to do with the popularity of the film itself and the ability to make a "different hummable" tune for it. To enter the concert hall, some degree of complexity or orchestration....but I think that even that don´t assure it to be good.

The problem with music is that though you can analize it from diferent points of view (to be creative, having reached public consciousness, having reached concert hall....) it still is something about feelings. And not everyone´s feelings are moved by the same things.



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Doug C.
(pool-71-101-216-222.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
  Good post Nate! *NM*   Monday, July 24, 2006 (6:25 a.m.) 



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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Doug C.

  Responses to this Message:
Doug C.
  Re: Glad to see some discussion on this board...   Monday, July 24, 2006 (12:49 p.m.) 

And Doug, missed you in Florida! You guys have wonderful beaches down there however

N8

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Doug C.
(pool-71-101-247-187.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Nate U

  Responses to this Message:
Nate U
  Good post Nate!   Wednesday, July 26, 2006 (7:46 a.m.) 

> And Doug, missed you in Florida! You guys have wonderful beaches down
> there however

Hope you had fun. Sorry I missed you...been involved in a pretty busy trial lately. What beach did you go to?

-Doug


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Nate U
(pool-71-254-101-159.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Doug C.
  Re: Good post Nate!   Wednesday, July 26, 2006 (2:46 p.m.) 

> Hope you had fun. Sorry I missed you...been involved in a pretty busy
> trial lately. What beach did you go to?

Clearwater beach, near Tampa. My first beach south of Maine. (aka one that is swimmable) Also stayed at a Grandparents' home in Kissimee.

N8

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docile
(tc1-19.lindstrom.cornernet.com)

  In Response to:
Doug C.

  Responses to this Message:
C. Hook
Carlton
tromboja
  The real Zimmer...   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (5:04 p.m.) 

> People who give Zimmer a hard time really either have short term memory,
> or do not look at his entire body of work. Hell, people still bring up the
> Peacemaker as if thats the only thing he has ever done. Yes he does
> "copy" himself, but only when it is appropriate.

Exactly. I think the best Zimmer comes from his drama/comedy scores. It seems more emotion comes out of the music than his action music. I think his best scores are: "I'll Do Anything" "Matchstick Men" "As Good As It Gets" "Prince of Egypt" "Driving Miss Daisy" "The Ring" "Nine Months" "Point of No Return" "Lion King" "Last Samurai" "Rain Man" "A League of Their Own" "Cool Runnings" "Backdraft." None of those are action scores. when people bash Zimmer they only bring up two scores: "The Rock" and "The Peacemaker." It seems to me people only have a problem with his action music, so why not just bash that instead of all of his work?

I think a lot of people haven't really heard any Zimmer and just bash him because it is the thing to do. Like poor Olivier saying Zimmer's main theme for Pearlharbor was beautiful over at the FSM messageboard. He got bashed for saying that. Also, there is a lot of hate and stupidity over at the FSM messageboard right now in the "Jerry-Goldsmith-implied-that-he-didn't-like-Media-Ventures" post. Meh. I feel sorry for people that can't just enjoy all types of soundtracks. I could go from "To Kill A Mockingbird" right to "Con Air" and enjoy both of them.

I don't know what I'm trying to say. I guess people that don't like Zimmer should try one of his comedy scores or non-action scores.

THE END



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C. Hook
(200.122.153.46)

  In Response to:
docile

  Responses to this Message:
docile
Yavar Moradi
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (6:53 p.m.) 

> Exactly. I think the best Zimmer comes from his drama/comedy scores. It
> seems more emotion comes out of the music than his action music. I think
> his best scores are: "I'll Do Anything" "Matchstick
> Men" "As Good As It Gets" "Prince of Egypt"
> "Driving Miss Daisy" "The Ring" "Nine
> Months" "Point of No Return" "Lion King"
> "Last Samurai" "Rain Man" "A League of Their
> Own" "Cool Runnings" "Backdraft." None of those
> are action scores. when people bash Zimmer they only bring up two scores:
> "The Rock" and "The Peacemaker." It seems to me people
> only have a problem with his action music, so why not just bash that
> instead of all of his work?

That is a good point and I'm with you on that list, but only when Last Samurai is not on board. I actually think Zimmer has had more influence (that is, with a higher degree of success) in the modern "comedy" score, drawing from the early 90s style and perfectioning it to the point where you get stuff like Matchstick Men. I also believe that (again, with a higher success rate, as in "it works really well") the modern action score is more influenced by Danny Elfman than any other composer. The Carl Staling-like action music, short motifs, heavy rythm, and fairy-like chorus can be traced back to Elfman.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, though.

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docile
(tc1-39.lindstrom.cornernet.com)

  In Response to:
C. Hook

  Responses to this Message:
Smalltown_Poets
Yavar Moradi
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (8:03 p.m.) 

> That is a good point and I'm with you on that list, but only when Last
> Samurai is not on board.

Fine, I forgot "Power of One" so I'll replace "Samurai" with that.

Anyway, does anyone else think the bass lines from "Matchstick Men" are really cool? Especially in tracks like 'Weird Is Good.' <---------- my favorite track from that score as well.

Also, Zimmer's "I'll Do Anything" may be my all-time favorite Zimmer score. It has the massive 7-15 minute tracks (four of them) usually reserved for his action scores and all four score tracks introduce an instantly memorable theme. Classic Zimmer and very unique.

THE END

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Smalltown_Poets
(ac881312.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
docile

  Responses to this Message:
docile
Yavar Moradi
  The real ultimate Power: Africa scores   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (8:15 p.m.) 

> Fine, I forgot "Power of One" so I'll replace
> "Samurai" with that.

I absolute love "Power of One." Not as much as Powell's "Endurance," but it's still wonderful. Then again, I've never met an Africa-themed score I didn't like.

Ghost and the Darkness, Lion King, Mighty Joe Young, Amistad... heavenly.

-Jon

NP: Kull the Conqueror (I think you'll like this one)


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docile
(tc1-39.lindstrom.cornernet.com)

  In Response to:
Smalltown_Poets

  Responses to this Message:
Smalltown_Poets
Carlton
  Re: The real ultimate Power: Africa scores   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (8:34 p.m.) 

> I absolute love "Power of One." Not as much as Powell's
> "Endurance," but it's still wonderful. Then again, I've never
> met an Africa-themed score I didn't like.

How does "Endurance" compare to other Powell scores? This one has been on my list for about five years, but it is slowly disappearing so I need to act fast.

> Ghost and the Darkness, Lion King, Mighty Joe Young, Amistad... heavenly.

What about Tears of the Sun, Out of Africa (does this even count), A World Apart, Congo? I like all of those.

> NP: Kull the Conqueror (I think you'll like this one)

Yeah. Joel Goldsmith is one of those composers that I like everything I've heard from them, but for some odd reason I just don't get around to buying any of their CDs. Now I'll at least have one Joel Goldsmith CD. Yay!

THE END

NP: Naked Gun *****


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Smalltown_Poets
(ac881312.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
docile
  Re: The real ultimate Power: Africa scores   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (10:11 p.m.) 

> How does "Endurance" compare to other Powell scores? This one
> has been on my list for about five years, but it is slowly disappearing so
> I need to act fast.

I don't have enough Powell scores to really say how it compares with his other stuff. Powell's largely hit-or-miss with me, so I only have a few of his scores. There's definitely some Media Ventures influences like those staccato orchestra hits and such. Still, the score feels very vibrant to me and the finale track is just wonderful.

> What about Tears of the Sun, Out of Africa (does this even count), A World
> Apart, Congo? I like all of those.

Ah, I had forgotten about Tears of the Sun... it bores me a bit, unfortunately. I like Out of Africa, but there's not much African influence there. And the main theme is nearly exactly the same as his own High Road to China, which I like better. I do need to check out A World Apart and Congo.

> Yeah. Joel Goldsmith is one of those composers that I like everything I've
> heard from them, but for some odd reason I just don't get around to buying
> any of their CDs. Now I'll at least have one Joel Goldsmith CD. Yay!

Have you heard his unreleased stuff from "Star Trek First Contact" like the Phoenix Flight track? Fantastic!

-Jon


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Carlton
(aca3dcfa.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
docile
  Re: Out of Africa   Thursday, July 20, 2006 (4:26 p.m.) 

> What about Tears of the Sun, Out of Africa (does this even count), A World Apart, Congo? I like all of those.

I would say that Out of Africa doesn't count since I don't like it.

-CG

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Smalltown_Poets
  Jens has never met an Africa-themed score he did like.   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (9:52 p.m.) 

> Ghost and the Darkness

I'm thinkin' he made a slight exception for that one.

Yavar

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
docile
  I really really like Spanglish. Not quite as great as the film but really good. *NM*   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (9:52 p.m.) 



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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
C. Hook

  Responses to this Message:
C. Hook
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (9:40 p.m.) 

> That is a good point and I'm with you on that list, but only when Last
> Samurai is not on board. I actually think Zimmer has had more influence
> (that is, with a higher degree of success) in the modern
> "comedy" score, drawing from the early 90s style and
> perfectioning it to the point where you get stuff like Matchstick Men. I
> also believe that (again, with a higher success rate, as in "it works
> really well") the modern action score is more influenced by Danny
> Elfman than any other composer. The Carl Staling-like action music, short
> motifs, heavy rythm, and fairy-like chorus can be traced back to Elfman.

> I don't expect anyone to agree with me, though.

No, I agree he's been an influence. But you can trace stuff back much further. The short motifs (and lots of Elfman's style) are Herrmann. I think what you're referring to as "Carl Stalling-like" is maybe the Nino Rota stuff in his early comedy scores? The best Carl Stalling-esque modern writing I've heard is Bruce Broughton (and his team) for Tiny Toons. Carl would be proud. The fairy-like chorus as well as pretty music box themes for dark films I can trace all the way back to stuff like Gerald Fried's excellent The Cabinet of Caligari.

Yavar

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C. Hook
(200.122.153.46)

  In Response to:
Yavar Moradi

  Responses to this Message:
Carlton
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (10:02 p.m.) 

> No, I agree he's been an influence. But you can trace stuff back much
> further. The short motifs (and lots of Elfman's style) are Herrmann. I
> think what you're referring to as "Carl Stalling-like" is maybe
> the Nino Rota stuff in his early comedy scores? The best Carl
> Stalling-esque modern writing I've heard is Bruce Broughton (and his team)
> for Tiny Toons. Carl would be proud. The fairy-like chorus as well as
> pretty music box themes for dark films I can trace all the way back to
> stuff like Gerald Fried's excellent The Cabinet of Caligari.

I meant it as Elfman being responsible for defining those parameters for the modern era. The chorus in scores like Superman Returns are more reminiscent of Elfman's Spider-Man than the Golden Age. The Carl Staling reference is how Elfman describes his action music (you can see it in the interview from the Batman Returns DVD and I think Ryan posted it on a blog at his site). What I say is the tools of the trade have always been there, but the style, use, and reinvention of them adopted by some composers becomes an inspiration for others of their generation and, in the worst cases, a buffet where others pick what they like and go with it. Give in to temp-tation. It's like when everyone wanted a Williams-like score after Star Wars. Sure, it was Wagner's thing, but what producers wanted was the Williams sound. I don't know if I'm making sense here.

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Carlton
(aca3dcfa.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
C. Hook

  Responses to this Message:
Yavar Moradi
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Thursday, July 20, 2006 (4:23 p.m.) 

> Sure, it was Wagner's thing, but what producers wanted was the Williams sound. I don't know if I'm making sense here.

Some say that Stars Wars was more of a Korngold thing...

-CG

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Carlton

  Responses to this Message:
Carlton
  Re: The real Zimmer...   Friday, July 21, 2006 (11:19 a.m.) 

> Some say that Stars Wars was more of a Korngold thing...

Actually, aside from the slight similarity of the main theme to King's Row, I don't think William's score is remeniscent of Korngold at all. People always say that, but in terms of style and how he uses the themes it's much more like Alfred Newman...especially Captain from Castile.

Yavar

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Carlton
(ac96bb27.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
Yavar Moradi

  Responses to this Message:
Yavar Moradi
  Re: The real Zimmer... And, now, a Planetary leap back to Star Wars   Friday, July 21, 2006 (4:13 p.m.) 

> Actually, aside from the slight similarity of the main theme to King's
> Row, I don't think William's score is remeniscent of Korngold at all.
> People always say that, but in terms of style and how he uses the themes
> it's much more like Alfred Newman...especially Captain from Castile.

Well, I read that SW also shares similarities with's Korngold's Sea Hawk score.

-CG

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Carlton
  Re: The real Zimmer... And, now, a Planetary leap back to Star Wars   Friday, July 21, 2006 (9:27 p.m.) 

> Well, I read that SW also shares similarities with's Korngold's Sea Hawk
> score.

Not as much as with the Newman, but yes, The Sea Hawk is Korngold's most complex and theme-filled score and the closest to John Williams in that sort of style. It also happens to be my favorite Korngold score by quite a bit.

Yavar

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Carlton
(aca3dcfa.ipt.aol.com)

  In Response to:
docile
  Re: Zimmer is who he is....   Thursday, July 20, 2006 (4:21 p.m.) 

> It seems to me people only have a problem with his action music, so why not just bash that instead of all of his work?

And the fact that it doesn't sound like old orchestral stuff...

> I think a lot of people haven't really heard any Zimmer and just bash him because it is the thing to do. Like poor Olivier saying Zimmer's main
> theme for Pearlharbor was beautiful over at the FSM messageboard. He got bashed for saying that.

Well the "War" cue is gorgeous. It's the only part of the score which I've heard.

> Also, there is a lot of hate and stupidity over at the FSM messageboard right now in the "Jerry-Goldsmith-implied-that-he-didn't-like-Media-Ventures" post.

I skipped that thread.

> Meh. I feel sorry for people that can't just enjoy all types of soundtracks. I could go from "To Kill A Mockingbird" right to "Con Air" and enjoy both of them.

So, you now like To Kill A Mockingbird? I love the main theme and I like Con Air too!

> I don't know what I'm trying to say. I guess people that don't like Zimmer should try one of his comedy scores or non-action scores.

They'll still complain, because they are only searching for one stereotyped version of greatness...

-Carlton

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tromboja
(adsl-219-153-91.asm.bellsouth.net)

  In Response to:
docile
  What do you mean...FSM board is Zimmer's biggest fan! *NM*   Saturday, July 22, 2006 (5:29 p.m.) 



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Nate U
(pool-72-73-77-37.ptldme.east.verizon.net)

  In Response to:
Doug C.
  ..........   Friday, July 21, 2006 (3:50 p.m.) 

> Da Vinci Code is the best score I have heard in several years. In fact,
> the score rises above the film. Just listen to the beauty of track 9. Much
> of it is unlike anything I have ever heard from Zimmer.

This score is growing on me a lot, as well. At first Da Vinci sounded a little like Hannibal-lite but its really more of a grand and cohesive version of it...

> POTC 2, both the film and score, are mindless and lazy popcorn
> entertainment. I don't think Zimmer would argue with this statement. The
> film did not deserve any better than what Zimmer gave it, as the film was
> entirely derivative itself. Bruckheimer likes a certain sound and demands
> it.

And so Zimmer delivers his sound...but at least its his, man! Its uniquely Zimmer, simplistic on technical terms and all. But on Zimmer's own "terms" Pirates 2 has some excellent phrasing and conceptual ideas, mostly in the first three tracks. At least I really like the music.

> I think you can't bash Zimmer, when he does some truly unique stuff for
> films that deserve it. For instance, Matchstick Men was not a popcorn
> film, so Zimmer decided to summon a little Nino Roto. And you have to give
> credit to Zimmer for truly elevating The Ring from being a standard horror
> score. When was the last time a composer put so much complexity into a
> HORROR FILM! Even Jerry Goldsmith's cherished score to The Omen was not
> even as complex. (A score which I admittedly dislike.)

Matchstick Men is one of Zimmer's most overlooked scores of the alst decade. Its really just brimming with elaborate creativity for a film you wouldn't imagine it in. The Ring's score, complex or not, has an exceptionally strong musical identity for a jumpy little hollywood horror movie...I mean, how many more people remember Zimmer's Ring score than people do the number of efforts John Ottman has done for the genre?

N8

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Yavar Moradi
(adsl-69-231-66-31.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)

  In Response to:
Christian Kühn
  Agreed...and funny too...especially the subscript on his main page. *NM*   Wednesday, July 19, 2006 (12:06 p.m.) 



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