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Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19 [EDITED]

Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19 [EDITED]
JBlough
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (6:22 a.m.) 

This is part of a series.
- Here’s the last post on Solo - https://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/forum.cgi?read=119564
- If you want the full set of links covering the Too Big To Fail era or earlier, click on my profile.

-----------------------

The World of Hans Zimmer: A Symphonic Celebration (2018) - ****½
Curated by Hans Zimmer; music director Gavin Greenaway; add’l arrangements Steve Mazzaro; add’l programming
Steven Doar; orchestrated by B&W Fowler/Moriarty, Kevin Kaska & Carl Rydlund; technical score consultant Chuck Choi;
ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra and Neue Wiener Stimmen & Insingizi & Friends conducted by
Martin Gellner; soloists including Pedro Eustache & Lisa Gerrard; Vienna performance released in 2019

The 2000 Ghent concert was covered here: https://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/forum.cgi?read=108077
Hans Zimmer Live was covered here: https://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/forum.cgi?read=118180

TBTF discovery #56.

Why have one branded concert series when you can have two? Intended as a more orchestral counterpoint to Hans Zimmer Live, the tour called The World of Hans Zimmer would launch under the direction of conductor and onetime Zimmer crew member Gavin Greenaway. Backed by several of Zimmer’s famed instrumental contributors and light shows that incorporated images from the films, the show started in Germany, ended up in Austria for the 2018 iteration of the Hollywood in Vienna concert series, and is still touring the globe to this day. The concert would largely cover different territory than what the concurrent rock-adjacent tour was featuring, including some Zimmer pieces that had rarely been performed or been unfairly forgotten: a rousingly symphonic take on Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron, King Arthur, Best Friends from Madagascar (complete with whistling!), Kung Fu Panda, To Every Captive Soul from Hannibal (the loveliest track in the show), and even an energetic suite from The Holiday.

Zimmer had once referred to his first pass at the later parts of The Da Vinci Code as a “27 minute mini-symphony,” and here much of that suite would get performed as such, with Chevaliers de Sangreal bringing the first half of the concert to a terrific close. Most of the other material throughout the performance was arranged to take advantage of the ensemble, although the suite from Rush amusingly didn’t sound that different from the budget-conscious approach taken for its original score. On the whole, World was a decidedly different experience than Live; the music entertains in equal measure, though it is a tad less fun to watch the performance than it is to see Zimmer and his buddies shredding on stage.

Two additional things to note as it pertains to the Vienna concert. First, Zimmer was in attendance to receive an award, and actually ended up playing guitar on a few of the tracks. Second, Tom Cruise appeared via a prerecorded video and told the audience that Hans would be joining Harold Faltermeyer in scoring his upcoming Top Gun sequel, which was due to start filming the next year and ended up being one of the most fascinating scoring stories of Zimmer’s career. More on that later.

Zimmer’s sole score from 2018 was worlds away from the style of this concert series.


Widows (2018) - *½
Hans Zimmer; add’l music by Steve Mazzaro; orchestrated by Shane Rutherfoord-Jones;
technical score engineers Chuck Choi & Steven Doar; conducted by Robert Ziegler; percussion
Luis Jardim; digital instrument design Mark Wherry; Cynthia Park & Nicole Jacob as Zimmer’s assistants

12 Years a Slave was covered here: https://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/forum.cgi?read=116951

TBTF discovery #57.

Not only did Hans Zimmer score director Steve McQueen’s 2018 female crime drama Widows, he had also been in the orbit of the original TV series version when he was assisting Stanley Myers in the 1980s. “I was probably in my second week as [his] tea boy. It was the first time I was allowed near anything going on.” For this iteration of the story, Zimmer took somewhat of the same unintrusive approach he took on McQueen’s earlier 12 Years a Slave. “The picture itself was the melody, and my job was to do a little bit of orchestration. The moviemaking and the performances are so strong, you don’t want to clutter it up uselessly with music. The heist part was easy. Tough is how to show a strong woman grieving and vulnerable and on her own without getting sentimental to not rob her of her strength. Music automatically steals loneliness - it gives the character a companion - so I had to go against that in a way.”

The minimalist score exists in two moods: sparse strings and piano occasionally hinting at a simple theme and chugging contemporary rhythms. The latter element occasionally included some bluesy bass but largely (and frustratingly) came off like an indistinctive cross between The Dark Knight and Harry Gregson-Williams’ electronic thriller scores, though Zimmer would claim the recording for the short score was entirely acoustic. As with 12 Years a Slave, despite McQueen’s love of music one got the sense that Widows could’ve functioned without any original score at all, so it’s perhaps commendable that Zimmer and team came up with something that worked, even if it was nondescript. “There’s not a lot of music, but it feels like there’s an appropriate amount. The editor uses sound to journey to the next scene.” At least it wasn’t as distracting in context as the Thin Red Line / Inception rip-off McQueen had Zimmer put in his prior film. Perhaps that’s progress of a sort.

And one got the sense that Zimmer was completely fine with working on a quality film even if its narrative music wasn’t overly demanding or tuneful. “My mother was a very strong woman, and she had to be. The world was against her. Refugee from Nazi Germany, surviving my father’s death, and being a woman in a male-dominated world looking after her child. I first-hand saw the struggle of one particular woman. It just felt appropriate to go and do this film. Plus, what a cast!”


Tomb Raider (2018) - ***½
Tom Holkenborg; add’l music by Aljoscha Christenhuß & Antonio Di Iorio; orchestrated & copied by
Holkenborg, Jonathan Beard, Edward Trybek & Henri Wilkinson; conducted by John Ashton Thomas

TBTF discovery #58.

The two adaptations of the Tomb Raider video games featuring Angelina Jolie in the aughts both had messy composer situations. Graeme Revell publicly apologized for the quality of his rush job on the first film after Michael Kamen departed, and Alan SIlvestri had only a few weeks to work on the 2003 sequel after nearly all of Craig Armstrong’s material was tossed. So perhaps it was some comfort to Tom Holkenborg that this 2018 reboot of the concept lacked that messiness. He and director Roar Uthaug got along right from the start thanks to their common experiences playing in 80s metal bands. “I had a good relationship with Warner Bros. [already], and [Roar] wanted to work with me because I tend to have this raw approach to films. We discussed sound design, percussion, a real feeling of survival of the fittest, but also orchestral writing when the emotional pieces needed to be addressed.”

Holkenborg’s penchant for tinkering continued, with the composer ordering custom-made drums, manipulating animal noises into percussive effects, and having string and brass “treated electronically to give it a really weird sound.” There were BWAMs and moments of truly ear-splitting noise at times, but also a detailed jungle soundscape complete with bits of awe and wonder and a few affecting character moments that were primarily orchestral. At times it felt generic (chopping strings rhythms of the post-Bourne variety, plus frequent unison brass outbursts that are very ersatz Hans), but in others ways it was the most sophisticated Holkenborg score to date, and it was also perhaps his first major assignment that went beyond “hey, just do your Man of Steel / Mad Max thing again.”

There was evidence that the artist formerly known as Junkie XL was pushing himself in a few new directions, especially if you view this score as a next step in his composing evolution after The Dark Tower. But the prevalence of electronics and remixed percussion still made several traditionalist score critics dismiss this work when it came out (with several in an aggressively condescending tone). Those critics might’ve been more forgiving of his next effort if any of them had bothered reviewing it.


Mortal Engines (2018) - ***½
Tom Holkenborg; add’l music by Antonio Di Iorio; orchestrated by Holkenborg, Jonathan Beard, Edward Trybek &
Henri Wilkinson; orchestra conducted by Conrad Pope; choir conducted by Karen Grylls; add’l synth programming
by Emily Rice, Jonas Friedman & Max Karmazyn; technical score engineers Alex Ruger & Jacopo Trifone

TBTF discovery #59.

“In 2003, I came to L.A. wanting to be a film composer. Now, 15 years later, I've collaborated with Peter Jackson, George Miller, Tim Miller, Zack Snyder. It's amazing.”

The Peter Jackson-produced adaptation of the Mortal Engines book series turned into a colossal flop, but it gave Holkenborg an opportunity to translate his bludgeoning action sound (harsh brass tones, relentless percussion, etc.) into more of a symphonic style. Tom would describe the job as making “sure that we feel the emotional ride of the main character throughout the film. Focus on the outside and the craziness of the world when it's appropriate, but focus at all times on what Hester’s looking for. In big action scenes, sometimes the music is very small because it just follows her.”

There are elegant woodwind solos, vaulting brass fanfares, and haunting operatic vocals no one had really asked of the composer before. There are thrilling hints of Richard Wagner’s famed Ride of the Valkyries, unsurprising as Holkenborg claimed he “listen[ed] to an awful lot of classical music” including that work and Berloiz’s Symphonie Fantastique. And the clarity with which individual instrumental groups could be heard in a track like No Going Back was a fascinating glimpse into the kind of hybrid orchestral music the composer could produce when he wasn’t burying his mix in sonic wallpaper - much closer to Harry Gregson-Williams’ output than Man of Steel. “It really feels like you’re living in an alternate universe when you’re [in New Zealand]. It reinforced the creative process, being around such beauty and such talented people.”

Tom’s penchant for tinkering would continue. Mortal Engines involves a lot of repurposing of objects they found from the past for something else. I [tried] to [use] for something they weren’t meant for in the first place - strings into drums, guitars into strings.” Most of this isn’t terribly noticeable in the final mix of the score, save perhaps for the obnoxious repeated tones for the metal man pursuing Hester which were a mix of brass and garbage truck noises that Tom thought of while sitting at a dental appointment. Yet even that sound design was arguably a dramatic necessity for the film as “Shrike needed to be something completely different from the rest of the score.” On the whole, the score was a nice change of pace for a composer many traditionalist score fans had dismissed for years.

Holkenborg’s evolution would continue with another blockbuster released only a few months later…


Alita: Battle Angel (2019) - ****
Tom Holkenborg; add’l music by Antonio Di Iorio; orchestrated by Holkenborg, Edward Trybek, Henri Wilkinson
& Jonathan Beard; orchestra conducted by Conrad Pope; choir conducted by Jasper Randall; technical score
engineers Alex Ruger & Emily Rice; synth programming by Jacopo Trifone, Jonas Friedman & Max Karmazyn

TBTF discovery #60.

Before his life was taken over by Avatar sequels, James Cameron had planned to direct an adaptation of this 90s Japanese comic book series; he would remain as a producer when Robert Rodriguez took over. Holkenborg wasn’t exactly a left-field composer choice for the film, what with his background on teched-out futuristic action films (Divergent, for starters), but his music would turn out to be surprisingly orchestral, full of instrumental colors and occasional moments of lightness and wonder that went beyond even his evolved style from the prior year’s Mortal Engines. Holkenborg would tinker with electronics at the start of his process but ultimately go in a more symphonic direction. “We all agreed that [Alita’s] theme needed to be organic and acoustic to emphasize her humanity. The audience needs to lean in to her, not lean back, which usually happens when you use purely electronic music. It could have been a choice! But we felt that would have been the wrong one. It’s probably my most orchestral score [to date].”

It would also be the first score in a long time where Holkenborg didn’t talk about sonic manipulation or messing around with instruments. There is little of the heaviness or abrasiveness that had defined much of his post-Man of Steel output. Holkenborg seemed to get a kick out of working on a stretch of films where his collaborators were asking him to do something very outside that wheelhouse. “When something really sticks, studios and directors want to hear a little bit more of that. After Deadpool or Black Mass or Mad Max, they would say, ‘can we do a version of that for this film?’ Sometimes that leads to a score that is somewhat similar to what you have done. But it also makes your brand stronger, so it’s like a catch-22. There’s always a give and take between having something unique and creating a style that’s recognizable.” Justifiably proud of the score, he would devote over two hours of videos on his YouTube channel to walking fans through how he went about creating and evolving his various character themes.


Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) - ***
Tom Holkenborg; add’l music by Antonio Di Iorio; orchestrated / copied by Holkenborg,
Edward Trybek, Henri Wilkinson & Jonathan Beard, add’l synth programming Jacopo Trifone,
Steve Silvers, Shwan Askari & Jarrod Royles-Atkins; technical score engineer Sara Barone

TBTF discovery #61.

Only four years after its re-reboot Terminator Genisys had disappointed critically and commercially, Paramount would attempt a hybrid re-re-reboot / legacyquel by bringing back Linda Hamilton, the star of the original films helmed by James Cameron. But this entry would also underperform at the box office, leading director Tim Miller to later admit that while he thought he’d made a good movie it seemed that the audience felt the franchise was creatively tapped out. Miller’s involvement likely explained the choice of Holkenborg as composer, as the two had collaborated three years earlier on Deadpool, plus Tom had already proven himself with Cameron on his recent Alita film.

Whereas Tom’s previous three scores had been increasingly orchestral, Dark Fate would be somewhat of a logical pivot back to his earlier days of being more known for relentless percussion, electronics, and sound design. That’s not to say he skimped on the acoustic side or any resemblance of an orchestra, but more that (to borrow a phrase from Lorne Balfe) you don’t try to impress your orchestration teacher on a Terminator film. One could imagine Henry Jackman, a composer arguably more comfortable toggling between symphonic and contemporary realms, taking a similar approach if he got the job. Holkenborg would provide pleasant Spanish guitar material related to the girl Dani who much of the story centers around and some mighty material for the action finale. There were even several intriguing adaptations of ideas from the first film; Tom said he wanted to use more legacy material but was blocked by its composer Brad Fiedel. But a lot of the music felt like a safe compromise between Tom’s Alita and Fury Road with a lingering sense that going harder in either direction would have resulted in more memorable music.

Tom’s “adventures with orchestra” would continue in 2020.

-----------------------

Next time: “It was tricky. He wanted to go one way and I wanted to go the other.”


(Message edited on Thursday, February 2, 2023, at 6:23 a.m.)


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19 [EDITED]
madtrombone
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (6:41 a.m.) 

> Mortal Engines (2018) - ***½
I'm sorry, I don't get this. Holkenborg's most symphonic and thrilling score of his entire career, and it's a 3.5/5? This is leagues ahead of anything Holkenborg has ever written, and your little write up (which is insightful and well-researched as always) sounded pretty positive. I have this one sitting at a 4.5/5, and 'London Suite in C Major' is one of the best single cues of the entire RC/MV lineage.

> Alita: Battle Angel (2019) - ****
> It would also be the first score in a long time where Holkenborg didn’t
> talk about sonic manipulation or messing around with instruments. There is
> little of the heaviness or abrasiveness that had defined much of his
> post-Man of Steel output.
Again, confusing. I have this score as a 2/5, and all it takes to hear the very prominent stylings of Man of Steel/Mad Max rear its head.


(Message edited on Thursday, February 2, 2023, at 6:44 a.m.)


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
JBlough
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (7:05 a.m.) 

> I'm sorry, I don't get this. Holkenborg's most symphonic and thrilling score of his entire career, and it's a 3.5/5? This is leagues ahead of anything Holkenborg has ever written, and your little write up (which is insightful and well-researched as always) sounded pretty positive. I have this one sitting at a 4.5/5, and 'London Suite in C Major' is one of the best single cues of the entire RC/MV lineage.

It's a higher-end ***1/2 score for me. Two things imperil a higher rating.

1) The 'heaviness' I've referred to in several write-ups. Holkenborg had a tendency at the time towards abrasive, unison lower brass outbursts, not exactly Inception BWAMs but in the same sonic universe, especially as they were usually accompanied by some manipulation. Even as his scores started to feature more orchestral intricacy, this raw sound (to borrow his phrase) was still quite present in Mortal Engines. Some folks like it, but this stuff tends to wear me out over time - it's in your face, and a good way to cut through sound effects, but it also makes the music feel more lumbering than it should.

2) It has a lot of themes (a bunch of the album is suites, including half of that London Suite track), but none of them stuck with me, and the score ends up feeling a little less than the sum of its occasionally impressive parts. I didn't have this problem with Alita.

> Again, confusing. I have this score as a 2/5, and all it takes to hear the very prominent stylings of Man of Steel/Mad Max rear its head.

I only recall the album-ending Motorball track doing that, and I think that one was in-film source music.



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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
Edmund Meinerts
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (7:07 a.m.) 

> 1) The 'heaviness' I've referred to in several write-ups. Holkenborg had a
> tendency at the time towards abrasive, unison lower brass outbursts, not
> exactly Inception BWAMs but in the same sonic universe, especially
> as they were usually accompanied by some manipulation. Even as his scores
> started to feature more orchestral intricacy, this raw sound (to borrow
> his phrase) was still quite present in Mortal Engines. Some folks
> like it, but this stuff tends to wear me out over time - it's in your
> face, and a good way to cut through sound effects, but it also makes the
> music feel more lumbering than it should.

This is the biggest problem I continue to have with much of even Holkenborg's better scores. Those low (synth?) brass blasts are just so ugly and tiring on the ears.


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
Mephariel
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (11:20 a.m.) 

> I'm sorry, I don't get this. Holkenborg's most symphonic and thrilling
> score of his entire career, and it's a 3.5/5? This is leagues ahead
> of anything Holkenborg has ever written, and your little write up (which
> is insightful and well-researched as always) sounded pretty positive. I
> have this one sitting at a 4.5/5, and 'London Suite in C Major' is one of
> the best single cues of the entire RC/MV lineage.
> Again, confusing. I have this score as a 2/5, and all it takes to hear the
> very prominent stylings of Man of Steel/Mad Max rear its head.

I had the same thoughts.


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
Thursday, February 2, 2023 (7:28 a.m.) 
Now Playing: Mortal Engines - Tom Holkenborg

Since we might be heading out into the 2019 scores, I'm anticipating that Wallfisch's score for Shazam! will be covered in the next entry. By the way, I even have differences with your opinion on Mortal Engines, since after listening to the London Suite in C Major, the thematic elements were memorable, and I didn't mind the abrasive brass outbursts you mentioned. This track is one of Holkenborg's best pieces.


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (8:35 a.m.) 

> Since we might be heading out into the 2019 scores, I'm anticipating that Wallfisch's score for Shazam! will be covered in the next entry.

I'm not. Getting this project to the finish line means that guys who spent only a few years at RC in the TBTF era and then went off to do very different things aren't being covered. If Wallfisch was, say, there in the MV or RC eras it might've been a different story.

This has a lot less to do with Shazam!, which is great in my view, and more to do with then feeling obligated to cover all his other works since moving to the U.S. Slippery slope and whatnot.

It's similar to the underlying logic that led me to stop exploring most of Klaus Badelt's works once he left Hollywood. It's there, and some of it might be good, but it feels less essential to the larger story. You'll note Solomon Kane got a similar kind of 'here's what happened after' kind of coda as Cure for Wellness did.

Maybe the only intriguing wrinkle is that Wallfisch seems to be one of the few people in this musical lineage who doesn't mind scoring a lot of horror films. John Powell and Lorne Balfe have both expressed disinterest in the genre, though for very different reasons. In fact, Wallfisch's relationships with both of his primary collaborators - David Sandberg and Andy Muschietti - are the result of horror films he did for New Line that were released in 2016 (Within and Lights Out).



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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (7:35 a.m.) 
Now Playing: Wolf (Matthjis Kieboom)

> Tomb Raider (2018) - ***½

Hrm, I feel like a lot of people (and I include myself) were perhaps a little *too* hard on that one. Now, I look at it as something of a transitional Score between the stuff he made before and what he proceeded to make immediately after.

> Mortal Engines (2018) - ***½

Rather recently, I watched the Film for the first time and why it wasn't a masterpiece, I actually enjoyed it. The (extensive) Bonus Features too, its evident a lot of people put a lot of Love into this project.
Including Holkenborg, who has a whole making-of to himself. He was evidently quite happy working on this and full of motivation.
And the Score is the one that made me sit up and start consider him as a Composer to look out for. Few of his later Scores got to this level but knowing what he's capable of made me stop wincing whenever I read that he's been assigned to Score an upcoming Film

> Alita: Battle Angel (2019) - ****

This one I liked even more. That I really, really enjoyed the Film helped too. Dramatic and pleasant, with the abrasive Material kept to a minimum (one Cue, which is supposed to be Source-Music, anyway). Really hope they'll be a Sequel.


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (8:53 a.m.) 

> Hrm, I feel like a lot of people (and I include myself) were perhaps a little *too* hard on that one. Now, I look at it as something of a transitional Score between the stuff he made before and what he proceeded to make immediately after.

The parallels between Tom in this era and Zimmer in the early/mid 90s are fascinating. Both started working with compositional collaborators who could help them realize a more orchestral sound (Pacific Heights leads to Backdraft leads to House of the Spirits and so on). Both also eventually got into animated / kid-friendly films - and, yeah, Sonic and Scoob! aren't The Lion King, but those assignments follow a similar template of genre diversification.



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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (11:54 a.m.) 

> The World of Hans Zimmer: A Symphonic Celebration (2018) - ****½

Heh, I saw this on Spotify and thought it was a City of Prague tribute or something! Might need to check it out then.

> Widows (2018) - *½

Accomplishes what it needed for the picture and absolutely nothing more. I don't remember a note of it, and it epitomizes the idea that some films are better off without music, if that's what the director wanted score-wise!

> Tomb Raider (2018) - ***½

This one deserves a revisit from me, because I've heard it twice and can't remember it (and it literally put me to sleep the second time!)

> Mortal Engines (2018) - ***½

I'd quibble and put this at four stars, but the album is slightly overlong and includes some less engaging passages, so ehh. This was probably the moment a lot of us listeners really started taking Holk seriously (or at least the start of potentially doing so). It really was a leap forward -- I draw less of a line to Dark Tower from this one, given how little I like it, but I can see the threads.

> Alita: Battle Angel (2019) - ****

I don't think I've heard this, and given how much you liked it, I should remember if I had! Film's supposed to be pretty good too.

> Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) - ***

Fascinated with the statement that Fiedel blocked more use of his themes. Wonder why that could be? Ego? (surely not) In any case, this is one of the stronger of Holk's simple percussive efforts, and likely the best outside of Mad Max Fury Road. It's also the best of the Terminator scores (possibly excepting for Genisys, which I need to revisit), though that's sadly not a high bar to clear (Elfman and Beltrami turned in good scores that completely missed the mark in delivering what was good about Fiedel's work).

> Tom’s “adventures with orchestra” would continue in 2020.

I don't know if you set out with this intent, but your writings on Holk's work comes off like a thesis on how he should be taken more seriously as a composer. I know the Scoreboard tends to dismiss him as an electronic artist who only got where he is because of Zimmer and not because of merit (and there is some truth to that), but you've laid out analyses that pretty undeniably shows how he has stuff to set him apart. Over time he's grown his chops and come out with some music that's legitimately quality, not just "turn off your brain." Anyone can cook, huh? big grin

(Then again, Kong v. Godzilla is coming, and well... woof.)

> -----------------------

> Next time: “It was tricky. He wanted to go one way and I wanted to go
> the other.”

Lines that can come from film scoring or road trip misadventures wink



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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (12:31 p.m.) 

> Fascinated with the statement that Fiedel blocked more use of his themes. Wonder why that could be? Ego? (surely not)

Unknown. Tom brought this up when talking about why he didn't use more legacy themes on a later film.

> I don't know if you set out with this intent, but your writings on Holk's work comes off like a thesis on how he should be taken more seriously as a composer. I know the Scoreboard tends to dismiss him as an electronic artist who only got where he is because of Zimmer and not because of merit (and there is some truth to that), but you've laid out analyses that pretty undeniably shows how he has stuff to set him apart. Over time he's grown his chops and come out with some music that's legitimately quality, not just 'turn off your brain.' Anyone can cook, huh? big grin

I definitely did not set out with this intent. It's an 'oh, hey, this is happening' accident on par with deciding to give Mission: Impossible - Fallout **** after finally hearing it on album, realizing how unlucky Mark Mancina's been at times, giving an extra star to Inception, and understanding how foundational a random quote made about Pacific Heights was for much of Zimmer's composing philosophy.

Prior to this effort, I had heard exactly none of Holkenborg's solo work standalone. The only scores of his I had heard were his contributions to Man of Steel and BvS, and I only finally got around to those albums in preparation for sitting down to watch the Snyder Cut. I tolerated one and hated the other (funny enough, those opinions didn't really change). I avoided all the other stuff, and didn't see most of the films that had his music, so I sort of took it at face value that it wasn't going to ever be my cup of tea. Was this a big mistake? Probably. Some snobbery can only be noticed with the benefit of extreme hindsight.

You do have a point about some of the hostility towards Tom stemming from his musical background, as if he didn't reach film composing 'the right way' or something like that. Danny Elfman went through the same nonsense even into the mid-90s. We just have more affection for his output because his early scores were more like Batman. Imagine if they were like Big Mess instead! Or imagine the comments on the Film Music Reporter version of the 1950s when Duke Ellington was announced as doing the music for Anatomy of a Murder.

I've come around to the idea that if I'm not liking what I'm hearing I can't always throw all the blame at the composer. The people who are hiring them want to hear that kind of sound reproduced in their movies, and there have been loads of comments made by composers in this musical lineage about how they don't appreciate being told to just copy their last successful score - not only Tom in the quote I referenced today, but even Hans who hates few things more than having a test screening go well when it has an earlier piece of his in the temp track and being told by a studio that was why it worked and he should do that again. But turning down gigs relatively early in your film composing career (or being seen as difficult) is usually a bad career move.

There's some comparison to be made with the career of Steve Jablonsky, another generally derided composer in these parts, though I think there's a key difference. With Tom, the evolution of his musical voice took time for a lot of people to recognize, almost like there was a time-release capsule. Whereas Steve got 'type-cast' for longer; post-Transformers, most of his assignments were for filmmakers who wanted new sounds and more edgy contemporary music. Heck, Epic Games liked Transformers so much that they fired Kevin Reipl in the middle of production on Gears of War 2 so Jablonsky could inject the game with that style of music. But that success was a double-edged sword, and he went over a decade without having a composing opportunity like he did on The Sims 3 - or longer, if you wanna go back to Steamboy.

Why, yes, I did just get around to DC League of Super-Pets this weekend. Why do you ask? cool

> (Then again, Kong v. Godzilla is coming, and well... woof.)

Woof indeed. I wish someone would give us a straight answer on whether that score was done before pandemic lockdowns started.



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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
Jonesy
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Friday, February 3, 2023 (8:34 a.m.) 

I don't have much to say in response to this wonderful comment. I just wanted to say that my view on this lineage and the music it's produced has changed so much. Even at my least charitable, you've made me take the attitude of "don't hate the player, hate the game." If you're not a published writer, shit, you need to be! (And I echo what others have said, this post serious could/should be a book, holy hell.)


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Re: Speaking of Steve Jablonsky... [EDITED TWICE]
Fraley
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Friday, February 3, 2023 (9:34 a.m.) 
Now Playing: Ms. Marvel Vol 2

...did you skip his score for TMNT2: Out of the Shadows, or did I miss an entry? 'Cause I just gave it a fresh spin recently while going through the TMNT scores, and I was looking forward to your thoughts on it! Personally, I love the brassy fanfares for the cues around the Turtles and the action music, and I like the Shredder theme, but there are also some rather dull ambient sound-design queues that surround the other villains (Baxter Stockman and Krang). On the whole, it feels in the same vein as his Transformers 1 score: a guilty pleasure with some good thematic tracks, even if it isn't super original.

And man, I just love this series. Whenever you post a new entry, it's like a mini-Christmas. I can't wait to read it!

> I've come around to the idea that if I'm not liking what I'm hearing I
> can't always throw all the blame at the composer. The people who are
> hiring them want to hear that kind of sound reproduced in their movies,
> and there have been loads of comments made by composers in this musical
> lineage about how they don't appreciate being told to just copy their last
> successful score - not only Tom in the quote I referenced today, but even
> Hans who hates few things more than having a test screening go well when
> it has an earlier piece of his in the temp track and being told by a
> studio that was why it worked and he should do that again. But turning
> down gigs relatively early in your film composing career (or being seen as
> difficult) is usually a bad career move.

Agreed. I came around to that realization regarding scores and composers a few years ago. Composers really don't get as much freedom in what they write as score fans often think they do.


(Message edited on Friday, February 3, 2023, at 9:35 a.m. and Friday, February 3, 2023, at 9:36 a.m.)


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Re: Speaking of Steve Jablonsky...
JBlough
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Friday, February 3, 2023 (9:53 a.m.) 

> ...did you skip his score for TMNT2: Out of the Shadows, or did I miss an entry? 'Cause I just gave it a fresh spin recently while going through the TMNT scores, and I was looking forward to your thoughts on it!

Looking back I think there was some fatigue when I got to 2015-2016 since I seem to have omitted several works that I didn't think would be enormously consequential and/or tolerable. Deadpool got skipped. This did too. I'm sure there are a few others.

Debatable if I should have done that for Out of the Shadows. On the one hand, it might have been something I liked more than, say, Skyscraper. And it was a continuation of the Jablonsky/Bay relationship, even if I doubt Michael Bay was terribly involved in the sequel. But it still feels less essential to the broader story - unsuccessful film, plus the music wasn't a bellwether of things to come in the next year or two.

> On the whole, it feels in the same vein as his Transformers 1 score: a guilty pleasure with some good thematic tracks, even if it isn't super original.

This is admittedly less appealing for me than it probably is for many others - but only because Transformers tops out at a *** work for me.



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Re: Speaking of Steve Jablonsky...
Jonesy
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Friday, February 3, 2023 (10:40 a.m.) 

> Looking back I think there was some fatigue when I got to 2015-2016 since
> I seem to have omitted several works that I didn't think would be
> enormously consequential and/or tolerable. Deadpool got skipped.
> This did too. I'm sure there are a few others.

> Debatable if I should have done that for Out of the Shadows. On the
> one hand, it might have been something I liked more than, say,
> Skyscraper. And it was a continuation of the Jablonsky/Bay
> relationship, even if I doubt Michael Bay was terribly involved in the
> sequel. But it still feels less essential to the broader story -
> unsuccessful film, plus the music wasn't a bellwether of things to come in
> the next year or two.

It's a lovely score if you like the RC style, and he clearly relished the chance to write action music with fanfares and flair -- but it sounds like you've had your fill of that style lol. Given that the film underperformed and Bay was only kinda involved, it's a bit of a detour.

> This is admittedly less appealing for me than it probably is for many
> others - but only because Transformers tops out at a *** work for
> me.

Definitely, then. It's a fun score, but if you had Transformers at only three stars, it's probably nothing to write home about big grin


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Re: Zimmer & friends pt 9h - TBTF 2017-19: World of Hans, Widows, Tom's 2018-19
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Thursday, February 2, 2023 (7:42 p.m.) 

> Widows (2018) - *½

Remember nothing about this one, though I'm sure I listened to it back in the day. From your rating and description... apparently I missed nothing. tongue

> Tomb Raider (2018) - ***½

I remember being one of the few to give this a higher rating than "horrible" when it came out, though my main issue at the time was the mixing. Perhaps I need to revisit Raider, as I remember it having some fun parts to it.

My original review:
https://soundtrack-universe.blogspot.com/2018/03/tomb-raider-speed-review.html?q=tom+holkenborg

> Mortal Engines (2018) - ***½

Ah, I remember when this came out and the schism of people who loved it and those that were... more cool to it. I was in the latter category though I noted it was a major step in the right direction for Holkenborg. The stupid oppressive "wall of sound" mixing on the album was a major detracting element for me... again.

Finally watched the film last year and enjoyed the score in-context a lot more. Also Engines wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be... just more derivative and forgettable than anything outside of a few key moments (the final battle is a doozy).

Again, my take from 2018:
https://soundtrack-universe.blogspot.com/2019/01/mortal-engines-speed-review.html?q=tom+holkenborg

> Alita: Battle Angel (2019) - ****

Ahh... now this. THIS is good.

Still one of my favorites from Tom and a near perfect blending of his symphonic meddling and electronic tendencies. Memorable and versatile Main theme really helps but also the orchestrations are finally really great. The only drawback is "Motorball", but it's also basically a source cue so I suppose one can let it slide.

Incidentally, we agree on the rating for this!
https://soundtrack-universe.blogspot.com/2019/02/alita-battle-angel-capsule-review.html?q=tom+holkenborg



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