I stumbled across some very interesting (and somewhat disturbing) information at the German film score forum SoundtrackBoard today:

http://www.soundtrack-board.de/topic/14028-var%C3%A8se-sarabande-marco-beltrami-the-woman-in-black-angel-of-death/?hl=brandon+roberts#entry351188

The meaty stuff starts with a post by the user Siddl, who from what I can gather knows and/or works with Beltrami's orchestration team. I'll translate for you.

Siddl: Beltrami doesn't compose alone anymore for over 50% of his music - no matter the project. I don't think it's that conspicuous, though. Buck Sanders has been by his side forever and Marcus [Trumpp] knows his style pretty well too - after all, he wrote over half of Die Hard 5, the other half is by Brandon Roberts. Two cues by Marco.

sami: The cast and crew list says something very different, though. And the CDs don't say otherwise either, which would be quite something at over 80%...

Siddl: A lot of the time these people don't like to be named - Marcus is very modest and gives Marco all the credit. James McKee Smith wrote cues for John Powell for years and never wanted any credit or acknowledgment. Unfortunately, if ever, they only are credited on cue sheets in order that royalties are paid properly. Some of the cue sheets I've come across have been downright scary.

Lars Potreck: Is the "family theme" at the end of Die Hard 5 ["It's Hard to Kill a McClane"] by Beltrami? It certainly sounds like a typical Beltrami finale.

Siddl: That's by Brandon Roberts. Marco's pieces are "1M3 - Phone Booth/Killing Anton" [that's "Jack Makes the Call" from the score album] and "8M1 - McClane's Brain".

Lars Potreck: Thanks for the information. He's got Beltrami's sound down perfectly, then.

There's a bit more discussion about that particular cue, and then some tangential discussion about Jerry Goldsmith and Joel McNeely on Air Force One, then it gets back to Die Hard 5.

Sebastian Schwittay: So there are only two pieces by Beltrami in A GOOD DAY TO DIE HARD? That comes as quite a shock - after all, it's one of the best "Beltrami" scores of the past two, three years. Are you sure that Beltrami handed over complete control of all the other cues? And "Triple Vodka Rhapsody" isn't by him either?

Siddl: Believe me, that's how it is. "Triple Vodka Rhapsody" is by Marcus.

Sebastian Schwittay: Did Beltrami not at least do early conceptual work on major cues?

Lars Potreck: That the music is sold as a purely Beltrami score is pretty outrageous. Not even Hansi Zimmer does that.

Siddl (to Sebastian's question): I can ask again specifically about that - but I'd imagine they'll be mum on the particulars. Not without reason, I'd say.

Okay...so :o :o :o !!!!

I totally agree with Sebastian. One of the best "Beltrami" scores I've ever heard, and not it's not just not entirely by Beltrami (which I'd assumed)...but rather Beltrami appears to have next to nothing to do with it at all!

Does anyone know more about this? I mean, holy hell!

> I stumbled across some very interesting (and somewhat disturbing)
> information at the German film score forum SoundtrackBoard today:

>
> http://www.soundtrack-board.de/topic/14028-var%C3%A8se-sarabande-marco-beltrami-the-woman-in-black-angel-of-death/?hl=brandon+roberts#entry351188

> The meaty stuff starts with a post by the user Siddl, who from what I can
> gather knows and/or works with Beltrami's orchestration team. I'll
> translate for you.

> Siddl: Beltrami doesn't compose alone anymore for over 50% of his music
> - no matter the project. I don't think it's that conspicuous, though. Buck
> Sanders has been by his side forever and Marcus [Trumpp] knows his
> style pretty well too - after all, he wrote over half of Die Hard 5, the
> other half is by Brandon Roberts. Two cues by Marco.

> sami: The cast and crew list says something very different, though. And
> the CDs don't say otherwise either, which would be quite something at over
> 80%...

> Siddl: A lot of the time these people don't like to be named - Marcus is
> very modest and gives Marco all the credit. James McKee Smith wrote cues
> for John Powell for years and never wanted any credit or acknowledgment.
> Unfortunately, if ever, they only are credited on cue sheets in order that
> royalties are paid properly. Some of the cue sheets I've come across have
> been downright scary.

> Lars Potreck: Is the 'family theme' at the end of Die Hard 5 ['It's
> Hard to Kill a McClane'] by Beltrami? It certainly sounds like a
> typical Beltrami finale.

> Siddl: That's by Brandon Roberts. Marco's pieces are '1M3 - Phone
> Booth/Killing Anton' [that's 'Jack Makes the Call' from the score
> album] and '8M1 - McClane's Brain'.

> Lars Potreck: Thanks for the information. He's got Beltrami's sound down
> perfectly, then.

> There's a bit more discussion about that particular cue, and then some
> tangential discussion about Jerry Goldsmith and Joel McNeely on Air
> Force One, then it gets back to Die Hard 5.

> Sebastian Schwittay: So there are only two pieces by Beltrami in A GOOD
> DAY TO DIE HARD? That comes as quite a shock - after all, it's one of the
> best 'Beltrami' scores of the past two, three years. Are you sure
> that Beltrami handed over complete control of all the other cues?
> And 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' isn't by him either?

> Siddl: Believe me, that's how it is. 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' is by Marcus.

> Sebastian Schwittay: Did Beltrami not at least do early conceptual work on
> major cues?

> Lars Potreck: That the music is sold as a purely Beltrami score is pretty
> outrageous. Not even Hansi Zimmer does that.

> Siddl (to Sebastian's question): I can ask again specifically about that -
> but I'd imagine they'll be mum on the particulars. Not without reason, I'd
> say.

> Okay...so :o :o :o !!!!

> I totally agree with Sebastian. One of the best 'Beltrami' scores I've
> ever heard, and not it's not just not entirely by Beltrami (which I'd
> assumed)...but rather Beltrami appears to have next to nothing to do with
> it at all!

> Does anyone know more about this? I mean, holy hell!

So one of my favorite Beltrami scores may not actually be by him? That saddens me deeply if it is true as I thought it was one of his freshest action scores in a long time

How strange! I don't know any of the people here discussing in the forums so I cannot say whether any of the information is believable or not. But if it's true it is really strange. I wonder how Beltrami feels about the false accreditation. If he's fine with it, then I think it calls into question his integrity as a film composer and means that we can't trust any future projects from him (not to mention his past scores).

I demand more evidence! This one guy's word is not enough to go off of.

> How strange! I don't know any of the people here discussing in the forums
> so I cannot say whether any of the information is believable or not. But
> if it's true it is really strange. I wonder how Beltrami feels about the
> false accreditation. If he's fine with it, then I think it calls into
> question his integrity as a film composer and means that we can't trust
> any future projects from him (not to mention his past scores).

If true, it'll make Hans Zimmer look like a cloistered-up genius with nothing but a pencil and some sheet music in comparison. Say what you will about the guy, he's at least a bit more up-front about using assistants.

I've heard some rumors about Brian Tyler and Danny Elfman and ghostwriters too, by the way. Paul Mounsey's contribution to Epic is not an insubstantial one, apparently (would explain the Powell influence in that score), and Matthew Margeson did quite a bit of the first Expendables. Sadly I don't know the specifics. It makes me wonder just how many composers had their fingers in the Age of Ultron pie, in the end!

You know, I don't have a huge issue with multiple composers working on a score. What I do have an issue with is keeping it such a secret. If I really like a score (as is the case with A Good Day to Die Hard, which is one of my favorite modern action scores), I want to know at WHOM I can channel that positive energy! It's certainly not Beltrami anymore.

> I demand more evidence! This one guy's word is not enough to go off of.

That's kind of how I feel, which is why I wanted to post this around and see if anyone can confirm, deny or knows more in general. I hope he's wrong but I don't really see why he would be.

> I stumbled across some very interesting (and somewhat disturbing)
> information at the German film score forum SoundtrackBoard today:

>
> http://www.soundtrack-board.de/topic/14028-var%C3%A8se-sarabande-marco-beltrami-the-woman-in-black-angel-of-death/?hl=brandon+roberts#entry351188

> The meaty stuff starts with a post by the user Siddl, who from what I can
> gather knows and/or works with Beltrami's orchestration team. I'll
> translate for you.

> Siddl: Beltrami doesn't compose alone anymore for over 50% of his music
> - no matter the project. I don't think it's that conspicuous, though. Buck
> Sanders has been by his side forever and Marcus [Trumpp] knows his
> style pretty well too - after all, he wrote over half of Die Hard 5, the
> other half is by Brandon Roberts. Two cues by Marco.

> sami: The cast and crew list says something very different, though. And
> the CDs don't say otherwise either, which would be quite something at over
> 80%...

> Siddl: A lot of the time these people don't like to be named - Marcus is
> very modest and gives Marco all the credit. James McKee Smith wrote cues
> for John Powell for years and never wanted any credit or acknowledgment.
> Unfortunately, if ever, they only are credited on cue sheets in order that
> royalties are paid properly. Some of the cue sheets I've come across have
> been downright scary.

> Lars Potreck: Is the 'family theme' at the end of Die Hard 5 ['It's
> Hard to Kill a McClane'] by Beltrami? It certainly sounds like a
> typical Beltrami finale.

> Siddl: That's by Brandon Roberts. Marco's pieces are '1M3 - Phone
> Booth/Killing Anton' [that's 'Jack Makes the Call' from the score
> album] and '8M1 - McClane's Brain'.

> Lars Potreck: Thanks for the information. He's got Beltrami's sound down
> perfectly, then.

> There's a bit more discussion about that particular cue, and then some
> tangential discussion about Jerry Goldsmith and Joel McNeely on Air
> Force One, then it gets back to Die Hard 5.

> Sebastian Schwittay: So there are only two pieces by Beltrami in A GOOD
> DAY TO DIE HARD? That comes as quite a shock - after all, it's one of the
> best 'Beltrami' scores of the past two, three years. Are you sure
> that Beltrami handed over complete control of all the other cues?
> And 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' isn't by him either?

> Siddl: Believe me, that's how it is. 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' is by Marcus.

> Sebastian Schwittay: Did Beltrami not at least do early conceptual work on
> major cues?

> Lars Potreck: That the music is sold as a purely Beltrami score is pretty
> outrageous. Not even Hansi Zimmer does that.

> Siddl (to Sebastian's question): I can ask again specifically about that -
> but I'd imagine they'll be mum on the particulars. Not without reason, I'd
> say.

> Okay...so :o :o :o !!!!

> I totally agree with Sebastian. One of the best 'Beltrami' scores I've
> ever heard, and not it's not just not entirely by Beltrami (which I'd
> assumed)...but rather Beltrami appears to have next to nothing to do with
> it at all!

> Does anyone know more about this? I mean, holy hell!

Huh, reminds me a bit of the so much talked about John Ottman situation as he also uses quite a lot of additional composers, but, at least, has an excuse of also being one of the top notch film editors today.

However, I do not believe this story as it seems totally over the top and unreal. C'mon, only two cues of the whole score by Beltrami? Yeah, right. Sure, these three are life long collaborators and definitely split the work, but Marco has to be the captain on the boat. Not buying this story till more proof is clearly evident.

> Sure, these three are life long collaborators and definitely split the
> work, but Marco has to be the captain on the boat.

This is the best analogy. It's common knowledge that all composers use ghostwriters - it's an absolute necessity when things come down to a time crunch. There are times when it's just physically impossible for a single composer to write however many minutes of music are needed in the time required by the film's post-production schedule, and orchestrate it properly, especially when the film is being re-edited at the same time. EVERY composer has needed to do it at some point in their career. EVERY SINGLE ONE. No exceptions.

What usually tends to happen is that the lead composer - be it Beltrami or whoever else - will be the one to decide on the tone and orchestration of the piece, the lead composer will decide on the spotting for the length of the cue, the lead composer will be the link between the director/producer and the music team, and the lead composer will sometimes come up with a suite of themes which are to be used throughout the score (as Zimmer does). But, depending on the time crunch, it's very common for other composers to actually WRITE the cues, using those criteria as a framework. I was physically in the room with Dominic Lewis when he was writing some music for Kung Fu Panda 2.

So, for Beltrami, you can still focus your positive or negative energy on him about the score, because he was still the one who decided on the TONE and APPROACH for the score, even if Trumpp or Roberts or whoever wrote the actual NOTES.

> So, for Beltrami, you can still focus your positive or negative energy on
> him about the score, because he was still the one who decided on the TONE
> and APPROACH for the score, even if Trumpp or Roberts or whoever wrote the
> actual NOTES.

Score Planning by Marco Beltrami, Score Execution by Various.

I guess the extent of this approach varies from composer to composer (I have a hard time imagining Williams doing this to such a degree, though), but true, look at Horner, look at Elfman etc. Especially if it is their usual orchestrators who do the ghost-writing, because this way, at least some similarity in style to the credited composer might be retained.

But I guarantee you that there was at least one composer who never had ANYbody ghostwrite for them. Bernard Herrmann. No way. *anticipates rebuttal in 5...4...3...*

> Score Planning by Marco Beltrami, Score Execution by Various.

> I guess the extent of this approach varies from composer to composer (I
> have a hard time imagining Williams doing this to such a degree, though),

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets comes to mind. William Ross did a lot of work on that one. I'd also bet my left nut that Ross did some composing work on The Force Awakens as well.

-Erik-

> Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets comes to mind. William Ross did a
> lot of work on that one. I'd also bet my left nut that Ross did some
> composing work on The Force Awakens as well.

Right. And I think it's pretty common knowledge that Angela Morley, Fred Steiner and 27-year-old Thomas Newman ghostwrote some cues for RETURN OF THE JEDI.

> Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets comes to mind. William Ross did a
> lot of work on that one. I'd also bet my left nut that Ross did some
> composing work on The Force Awakens as well.

> -Erik-

Any moments in particular?

> Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets comes to mind. William Ross did a
> lot of work on that one. I'd also bet my left nut that Ross did some
> composing work on The Force Awakens as well.

I was considering naming CoS, but I think that one was/is different in as far as (A) it is well-known that Williams was under a time crunch (cf. Jon's comments on that issue, even though the information out there is a bit conflicted, as some sources indicate that Williams' really did compose the meat of the score; more below) and (B) Ross' got credit on the CD and in the movie.

As for TFA, I have no knowledge nor have heard rumours, but for your sake, I hope you had more than one nut to begin with, so to speak.

Back for CoS: Other people say Williams' just wrote the new thematic material and left the adaptation/implementation and conducting duties all to Ross. Is the jury out by now on what hews closer to the truth?

And yes, I had forgotten about the roles that Thomas Newman et al. played on RotJ. Thanks for jogging my memory on that one.

Another composer where I am not aware of any ghostwriting (outside of proper collaboration) is Howard Shore. But even here, rumours about Desolation/Smaug and Five Armies have it that Conrad Pope's duties were more than orchestrating, conducting and changing stuff on the podium. But again, I have no inside knowledge, and may remember things in the wrong context.

CK

> As for TFA, I have no knowledge nor have heard rumours, but for your sake,
> I hope you had more than one nut to begin with, so to speak.

I have no insider knowledge but with Williams' health issuse and the time that he spent away from the production I'd be more than certain that Ross was there writing a few cues, under Williams guidance of course. But like I said, that's just a guess.

> Back for CoS: Other people say Williams' just wrote the new thematic
> material and left the adaptation/implementation and conducting duties all
> to Ross. Is the jury out by now on what hews closer to the truth?

From what I've heard... Ross did a good chunk of the heavy lifting on COS.

Back to confirmed ghostwriting... Tim Simonec wrote the entire score to Anne Frank: The Whole Story but Graeme Revell got the credit. I'll be playing that score on my show sometime this year!

-Erik-

i have the handwritten sheets on for CoS

AND it's all Williams name - no co-composed, no adapted, no Ross - nothing on the sheets would indicate that Ross were involved

Orchestrator's are Karam and Pope

> i have the handwritten sheets on for CoS

> AND it's all Williams name - no co-composed, no adapted, no Ross - nothing
> on the sheets would indicate that Ross were involved

> Orchestrator's are Karam and Pope

Perhaps it's the sheets that aren't always accurate. Maybe Beltrami did have more involvement in A Good Day to Die Hard than just those two cues.

no the sheets are always correct - it list orchestrators - if there are two they are listed on what measures/bar they have worked

The composers if there are two or more are also written on it

Of course there can be some small and minor mistakes - as such is the Cue from SPIDEY 3 that is title GLEN WATCHES SPIDEY LEAVE a good examble - credited solely to Young i believe

But those are rare instances since the orchestrated cue comes dirctly from the composer's sketch

and there are also the royalty part which is why i think the composers name has to be credited

> no the sheets are always correct - it list orchestrators - if there are
> two they are listed on what measures/bar they have worked

> The composers if there are two or more are also written on it

> Of course there can be some small and minor mistakes - as such is the Cue
> from SPIDEY 3 that is title GLEN WATCHES SPIDEY LEAVE a good examble -
> credited solely to Young i believe

> But those are rare instances since the orchestrated cue comes dirctly from
> the composer's sketch

> and there are also the royalty part which is why i think the composers
> name has to be credited

I would DEFINITELY not trust whats written on a conductor score in terms of being accurate for who composed the cue. Absolutely not a reliable resource, trust me. Don't trust cue sheets either. It all depends on the cue of course, but the truth is often not written ANYWHERE, as to avoid any sort of paper trail. Its called ghostwriting for a reason. No one is supposed to know except on a strict need-to-know basis. And trust me someone reading an orchestration of a cue does NOT necesarily need to know.

N8

> i have the handwritten sheets on for CoS

And you are....?

-Erik-

I am just Mark Malmstrĝm

all though i have many names in here - some of them being misused from time to time - you can recognize the real me from the imposter by the word-of-use (and sometime Pictures)

Don'r be so suspecious

> I am just Mark Malmstrĝm

> all though i have many names in here - some of them being misused from
> time to time - you can recognize the real me from the imposter by the
> word-of-use (and sometime Pictures)

> Don'r be so suspecious

Fantastic. That still tells me nothing about you and how you have hand written score sheets from Chamber of Secrets?

-Erik-

> Fantastic. That still tells me nothing about you and how you have hand
> written score sheets from Chamber of Secrets?

> -Erik-

they are parts of FILMMUSIC DATABASE CENTRAL which i own

> This is the best analogy. It's common knowledge that all composers use
> ghostwriters - it's an absolute necessity when things come down to a time
> crunch. There are times when it's just physically impossible for a single
> composer to write however many minutes of music are needed in the time
> required by the film's post-production schedule, and orchestrate it
> properly, especially when the film is being re-edited at the same time.
> EVERY composer has needed to do it at some point in their career. EVERY
> SINGLE ONE. No exceptions.

> What usually tends to happen is that the lead composer - be it Beltrami or
> whoever else - will be the one to decide on the tone and orchestration of
> the piece, the lead composer will decide on the spotting for the length of
> the cue, the lead composer will be the link between the director/producer
> and the music team, and the lead composer will sometimes come up with a
> suite of themes which are to be used throughout the score (as Zimmer
> does). But, depending on the time crunch, it's very common for other
> composers to actually WRITE the cues, using those criteria as a framework.
> I was physically in the room with Dominic Lewis when he was writing some
> music for Kung Fu Panda 2.

> So, for Beltrami, you can still focus your positive or negative energy on
> him about the score, because he was still the one who decided on the TONE
> and APPROACH for the score, even if Trumpp or Roberts or whoever wrote the
> actual NOTES.

This reminds me when Desplat had 2 weeks to write some of his scores.do you know if he also uses ghostwriters/uncredited additional composers in some of his scores?

> This reminds me when Desplat had 2 weeks to write some of his scores. Do
> you know if he also uses ghostwriters/uncredited additional composers in
> some of his scores?

I'm sure he does. Both Jean-Pascal Beintus and Sylvain Morizet are accomplished composers in their own right. I don't know any of the specifics, but I would be absolutely astounded if they have not written some cues for him over the years when time pressures became a factor (within the defined parameters of the rest of the score, as defined by Desplat at the beginning of the process).

> So, for Beltrami, you can still focus your positive or negative energy on
> him about the score, because he was still the one who decided on the TONE
> and APPROACH for the score, even if Trumpp or Roberts or whoever wrote the
> actual NOTES.

I don't know, Jon. There's a difference between what you're describing (I'll call it the "Hans Zimmer model", whereby the ideas and core sound comes from the lead composer and the others apply them on a cue-by-cue basis) and the lead composer only writing two cues in the entire project, which is what this guy was saying. I see a huge difference there.

the best part in A FATEFUL MEETING from KING KONG (when they are filming on boat) are not written by HOWARD but Blake Neely who did use the basic melodi line (harp) from HOWARD

thats one examble on how to ghostwrite a cue using the composers melodies

> the best part in A FATEFUL MEETING from KING KONG (when they are filming
> on boat) are not written by HOWARD but Blake Neely who did use the basic
> melodi line (harp) from HOWARD

> thats one examble on how to ghostwrite a cue using the composers melodies
>

Exactly. A perfect example of what I'm talking about.

If true, this would be a minor mindfuck for a massive Beltrami fan like me. However, I do prefer to be cautious, as people making false or exaggerated claims on internet isn't exactly unusual, and as DarkerKnight pointed out, this does sound a bit on the outrageous side.
I mean, Beltrami has his own studio and works on a reasonable number of scores every year, plus contrary to Hans Zimmer he is definitely not a 'brand'. I don't think his name on a CD makes it sell outside of the film music fan community. So except if Trumpp, Sanders and Roberts are pathologically shy people, I really don't see any reason for such quasi-total forsaking of credit in favor of Beltrami.

Bottomline, I'll need more proof on this one.

> If true, this would be a minor mindfuck for a massive Beltrami fan like
> me. However, I do prefer to be cautious, as people making false or
> exaggerated claims on internet isn't exactly unusual, and as DarkerKnight
> pointed out, this does sound a bit on the outrageous side.
> I mean, Beltrami has his own studio and works on a reasonable number of
> scores every year, plus contrary to Hans Zimmer he is definitely not a
> 'brand'. I don't think his name on a CD makes it sell outside of the film
> music fan community. So except if Trumpp, Sanders and Roberts are
> pathologically shy people, I really don't see any reason for such
> quasi-total forsaking of credit in favor of Beltrami.

> Bottomline, I'll need more proof on this one.

When you said Trumpp, Sanders, and Roberts, I thought you were talking about the presidential race for a second and I was trying to figure out who Roberts was. :/

Ghostwriting is nothing new. And until we figure out who this blabber mouth Siddl is this is all hearsay to me.

-Erik-

I don't really care to be honest. It's still good music (well, most of it anyway).

Funnily, the one that was openly co-credited (Woman in Black II) is pretty terrible.

Hard to blindly accept from an internet message board, but it would sort-of explain the unpredictable nature of his scores lately. I guess I'd be very curious to know the facts of Seventh Son, given my love for that score.

Also was listening to "Reunited"(The Gunman) again the other day, and trying to figure out how such a great cue could be trapped in an otherwise mediocre score. Perhaps there is a story there.

Either way, it's a pretty big bomb to just throw around a message board. Not sure what to think.

he could have gathered his information from the film score sheets

I have those sheets too and I could have made the same analysis he did by pointing out the composers for each cue

That said - even DIE HARD 4.0 was not solely by MB either

> I stumbled across some very interesting (and somewhat disturbing)
> information at the German film score forum SoundtrackBoard today:

>
> http://www.soundtrack-board.de/topic/14028-var%C3%A8se-sarabande-marco-beltrami-the-woman-in-black-angel-of-death/?hl=brandon+roberts#entry351188

> The meaty stuff starts with a post by the user Siddl, who from what I can
> gather knows and/or works with Beltrami's orchestration team. I'll
> translate for you.

> Siddl: Beltrami doesn't compose alone anymore for over 50% of his music
> - no matter the project. I don't think it's that conspicuous, though. Buck
> Sanders has been by his side forever and Marcus [Trumpp] knows his
> style pretty well too - after all, he wrote over half of Die Hard 5, the
> other half is by Brandon Roberts. Two cues by Marco.

> sami: The cast and crew list says something very different, though. And
> the CDs don't say otherwise either, which would be quite something at over
> 80%...

> Siddl: A lot of the time these people don't like to be named - Marcus is
> very modest and gives Marco all the credit. James McKee Smith wrote cues
> for John Powell for years and never wanted any credit or acknowledgment.
> Unfortunately, if ever, they only are credited on cue sheets in order that
> royalties are paid properly. Some of the cue sheets I've come across have
> been downright scary.

> Lars Potreck: Is the 'family theme' at the end of Die Hard 5 ['It's
> Hard to Kill a McClane'] by Beltrami? It certainly sounds like a
> typical Beltrami finale.

> Siddl: That's by Brandon Roberts. Marco's pieces are '1M3 - Phone
> Booth/Killing Anton' [that's 'Jack Makes the Call' from the score
> album] and '8M1 - McClane's Brain'.

> Lars Potreck: Thanks for the information. He's got Beltrami's sound down
> perfectly, then.

> There's a bit more discussion about that particular cue, and then some
> tangential discussion about Jerry Goldsmith and Joel McNeely on Air
> Force One, then it gets back to Die Hard 5.

> Sebastian Schwittay: So there are only two pieces by Beltrami in A GOOD
> DAY TO DIE HARD? That comes as quite a shock - after all, it's one of the
> best 'Beltrami' scores of the past two, three years. Are you sure
> that Beltrami handed over complete control of all the other cues?
> And 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' isn't by him either?

> Siddl: Believe me, that's how it is. 'Triple Vodka Rhapsody' is by Marcus.

> Sebastian Schwittay: Did Beltrami not at least do early conceptual work on
> major cues?

> Lars Potreck: That the music is sold as a purely Beltrami score is pretty
> outrageous. Not even Hansi Zimmer does that.

> Siddl (to Sebastian's question): I can ask again specifically about that -
> but I'd imagine they'll be mum on the particulars. Not without reason, I'd
> say.

> Okay...so :o :o :o !!!!

> I totally agree with Sebastian. One of the best 'Beltrami' scores I've
> ever heard, and not it's not just not entirely by Beltrami (which I'd
> assumed)...but rather Beltrami appears to have next to nothing to do with
> it at all!

> Does anyone know more about this? I mean, holy hell!

This will make me sound like an amateur, but why do they not credit these guys as Additional Music a la Hans Zimmer? You'd think composing from sketches would be a big thing to mention in the liner notes. Also, where can you find these cue sheets?

(My, how naive this sort of thing makes me feel!)

I may regret asking, but what of John Powell's work, which I so admire? Are there any that he took this approach on? (Honestly, I just want to be sure that How To Train Your Dragon, my favorite, is mostly him)

An addendum: Having just purchased the Scream / Scream 2 combo by him, I hope this doesn't hold true for that too!

(Message edited on Monday, January 18, 2016, at 1:37 p.m.)

> I may regret asking, but what of John Powell's work, which I so admire?
> Are there any that he took this approach on? (Honestly, I just want to be
> sure that How To Train Your Dragon, my favorite, is mostly him)

It's funny that the guy mentions Powell and James McKee Smith; fortunately, from the information I've gathered over the years, Powell's ghostwriters generally only provide a few cues here and there, and usually not important cues either. If you want to know more, hans-zimmer.com has a lot of information along those lines, or you can ask me if there's anything specifically you want to know.

From How to Train Your Dragon: James McKee Smith co-wrote "The Downed Dragon", Dominic Lewis contributed to "Focus, Hiccup!" and "Not So Fireproof", Michael John Mollo co-wrote "The Cove" and Paul Mounsey worked on "Dragon's Den" and, sigh, "Forbidden Friendship". Other than that last one, which was a bit of a painful discovery for me as well, you'll note that these are hardly the score's significant cues; the rest, including all the big highlights, thematic setpieces and major action cues like "This is Berk", "Test Drive", "Romantic Flight", "See You Tomorrow" and "Battling the Green Death", is Powell's and Powell's alone.

> It's funny that the guy mentions Powell and James McKee Smith;
> fortunately, from the information I've gathered over the years, Powell's
> ghostwriters generally only provide a few cues here and there, and usually
> not important cues either. If you want to know more, hans-zimmer.com has a
> lot of information along those lines, or you can ask me if there's
> anything specifically you want to know.

> From How to Train Your Dragon: James McKee Smith co-wrote 'The
> Downed Dragon', Dominic Lewis contributed to 'Focus, Hiccup!' and 'Not So
> Fireproof', Michael John Mollo co-wrote 'The Cove' and Paul Mounsey worked
> on 'Dragon's Den' and, sigh, 'Forbidden Friendship'. Other than that last
> one, which was a bit of a painful discovery for me as well, you'll note
> that these are hardly the score's significant cues; the rest, including
> all the big highlights, thematic setpieces and major action cues like
> 'This is Berk', 'Test Drive', 'Romantic Flight', 'See You Tomorrow' and
> 'Battling the Green Death', is Powell's and Powell's alone.

Unfortunately, The Cove is one of my favorite cues, but that's good news. Again, we can be assured that it is indeed his voice and style here, as opposed to many cooks in the kitchen? (I do consider The Downed Dragon to be a significant cue, since it is a defining moment of the film, and I've pointed to it as a masterful piece of thematic statements. That fiddle at the end!)

I did know about the unofficial Hans Zimmer website, but I didn't know they provided cue attribution. Where is that on the page?

And just for kicks and giggles, which MV/RC score was the credited composer involved in the least?

(Does Filmtracks have a PM system? I doubt that the community would appreciate me starting a thread every time I get curious!)

> Unfortunately, The Cove is one of my favorite cues, but that's good news.
> Again, we can be assured that it is indeed his voice and style here, as
> opposed to many cooks in the kitchen? (I do consider The Downed Dragon to
> be a significant cue, since it is a defining moment of the film, and I've
> pointed to it as a masterful piece of thematic statements. That fiddle at
> the end!)

Funny, "The Downed Dragon" has always been one of my least-returned-to cues from How to Train Your Dragon. I do love the dramatic fiddle bit, but it makes a reappearance in the far superior (and Powell-only!) "Battling the Green Death", so I get my fix for it there.

I like "The Cove", but it's basically just the Astrid theme on a, uh, melodica? I want to say accordeon, but that doesn't seem quite right either. In any case, that theme is 100% Powell's for sure. If it was Mollo's choice to orchestrate it that way, good on him - it's a lovely low-key moment.

> I did know about the unofficial Hans Zimmer website, but I didn't know
> they provided cue attribution. Where is that on the page?

Just search a score, call up its page and it'll be there inside the track list. Not every score has it, but plenty do (and often even the complete scores). Here, for instance, is Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End:

http://hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=disco&id=1127

Yikes!

> And just for kicks and giggles, which MV/RC score was the credited
> composer involved in the least?

Well, Hans Zimmer is co-credited for Henri IV but didn't write a note. It's all Henry Jackman. Similar story with Winter's Tale and Rupert Gregson-Williams, but Zimmer did provide a short piano theme to that (the first thing you hear in the opening cue) which means his name appears by proxy on a lot of cues that he actually wasn't involved in shaping.

> (Does Filmtracks have a PM system? I doubt that the community would
> appreciate me starting a thread every time I get curious!)

It does have an email option if you'd like.

> Funny, 'The Downed Dragon' has always been one of my least-returned-to
> cues from How to Train Your Dragon. I do love the dramatic fiddle
> bit, but it makes a reappearance in the far superior (and Powell-only!)
> 'Battling the Green Death', so I get my fix for it there.

No accounting for taste, I suppose. I just like the shifts in tone, from stately to ominous, to noble, to ancient-power.

> I like 'The Cove', but it's basically just the Astrid theme on a, uh,
> melodica? I want to say accordeon, but that doesn't seem quite right
> either. In any case, that theme is 100% Powell's for sure. If it was
> Mollo's choice to orchestrate it that way, good on him - it's a lovely
> low-key moment.

It's not the accordion, but I think it's a Harmonium? (Had to look at my Hancock booklet, it uses that instrument too)

> Just search a score, call up its page and it'll be there inside the track
> list. Not every score has it, but plenty do (and often even the complete
> scores). Here, for instance, is Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's
> End:

> http://hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=disco&id=1127

> Yikes!

Indeed! And that's hailed as one of Zimmer's strongest!

> Well, Hans Zimmer is co-credited for Henri IV but didn't write a
> note. It's all Henry Jackman. Similar story with Winter's Tale and
> Rupert Gregson-Williams, but Zimmer did provide a short piano theme to
> that (the first thing you hear in the opening cue) which means his name
> appears by proxy on a lot of cues that he actually wasn't involved in
> shaping.

Ouch. So, Zimmer's name is just there for marketing and nothing more? Do you know what those in Jackman's position think of that?
(Winter's Tale was awesome, really made me sit up and take notice of Rupert Gregson-Williams! Pity it's badly out-of-print)

> It does have an email option if you'd like.

> No accounting for taste, I suppose. I just like the shifts in tone, from
> stately to ominous, to noble, to ancient-power.

> It's not the accordion, but I think it's a Harmonium? (Had to look at my
> Hancock booklet, it uses that instrument too)

> Indeed! And that's hailed as one of Zimmer's strongest!

> Ouch. So, Zimmer's name is just there for marketing and nothing more? Do
> you know what those in Jackman's position think of that?
> (Winter's Tale was awesome, really made me sit up and take notice of
> Rupert Gregson-Williams! Pity it's badly out-of-print)

In an even weirder situation, the Henri IV credit is only an album one. The film credits Hans Zimmer only as the score *producer*

> In an even weirder situation, the Henri IV credit is only an album one.
> The film credits Hans Zimmer only as the score *producer*

Then it was marketing. People don't go see films for the composers, but some do buy albums on the name.

> It's funny that the guy mentions Powell and James McKee Smith;
> fortunately, from the information I've gathered over the years, Powell's
> ghostwriters generally only provide a few cues here and there, and usually
> not important cues either. If you want to know more, hans-zimmer.com has a
> lot of information along those lines, or you can ask me if there's
> anything specifically you want to know.

> From How to Train Your Dragon: James McKee Smith co-wrote 'The
> Downed Dragon', Dominic Lewis contributed to 'Focus, Hiccup!' and 'Not So
> Fireproof', Michael John Mollo co-wrote 'The Cove' and Paul Mounsey worked
> on 'Dragon's Den' and, sigh, 'Forbidden Friendship'. Other than that last
> one, which was a bit of a painful discovery for me as well, you'll note
> that these are hardly the score's significant cues; the rest, including
> all the big highlights, thematic setpieces and major action cues like
> 'This is Berk', 'Test Drive', 'Romantic Flight', 'See You Tomorrow' and
> 'Battling the Green Death', is Powell's and Powell's alone.

Wow, I did not know Paul Mounsey worked on 'Forbidden Friendship'.

We definitely need more proof. He wrote two cues? There's no way an experienced composer like Beltrami can't write more music than that. Couldn't he just have written every cue on piano and have his assistants do all of the orchestrating? If their ghostwriting yields such good results, the composers working for Zimmer really have some explaining to do...

All of you fail to understand how and why cue sheets get attributed. It is like watching school children trying to contemplate advanced economics. The editor of this site is the worst at this conjecture but discussions like this one prove that the idiocy defines everyone here.

> All of you fail to understand how and why cue sheets get attributed. It is
> like watching school children trying to contemplate advanced economics.
> The editor of this site is the worst at this conjecture but discussions
> like this one prove that the idiocy defines everyone here.

That's a touch uncharitable. I'm just a fan who wasn't familiar with this aspect of composition.

> All of you fail to understand how and why cue sheets get attributed. It is
> like watching school children trying to contemplate advanced economics.
> The editor of this site is the worst at this conjecture but discussions
> like this one prove that the idiocy defines everyone here.

you fail understand we are smarts about film music. i have many cue sheets in FILMMUSIC DATABASE CENTRAL which i own and you not much.

> you fail understand we are smarts about film music. i have many cue sheets
> in FILMMUSIC DATABASE CENTRAL which i own and you not much.

I may not be a genius but I can spot of cluster of uninformed fools anywhere and this site is one obvious cluster of fools. I challenge anybody in this discussion board to give a reality based, enlightened comment about how film music crediting works. Actually, that is asking too much. I challenge anybody in this discussion board to say anything enlightened at all.

> I challenge anybody in this discussion board to say anything enlightened at all.

Penis.

> Penis.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/yes-thank-you-for-your-input-sherlock/

> Penis.

This is the highlight of my weekend.

(Why? It took a while to dig this one up: http://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/main.cgi?read=134169 )

Christian

>

> This is the highlight of my weekend.

> (Why? It took a while to dig this one up:
> http://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/main.cgi?read=134169 )

> Christian

Interesting. Sometimes I wonder if you keep one of the Malmstrom clones to use as a straw man now and then. I used to theorize that Jack was your alter ego, particularly after you guys had nearly identical opinions on Interstellar. Apologies to Jack for thinking he wasn't real.

> I challenge anybody in this discussion board to say anything
> enlightened at all.

If one is constantly stuffing one's face, one cannot properly digest.

Am I the only one who don't care for Beltrami 80% of the time? His music composition is aimless, like just random notes. The only great score he has done imo is Soul Surfer.

> I may not be a genius but I can spot of cluster of uninformed fools
> anywhere and this site is one obvious cluster of fools. I challenge
> anybody in this discussion board to give a reality based, enlightened
> comment about how film music crediting works. Actually, that is asking too
> much. I challenge anybody in this discussion board to say anything
> enlightened at all.

And I challenge you not to be an arrogant asshole and to say something constructive. Then again, that's probably too much to ask...

> Does anyone know more about this? I mean, holy hell!

The methods used to write and produce a film score don't bother me if the music is good. Die Hard 5 is a great action score, so I really don't care if a parrot and and bar of soap wrote the music - the results were successful.

The methods used to write and produce a film score DO bother me if the end result I find less than successful. Because I find unsuccessful film scores to be bothersome. Because I love film scores.

The only other thing I will contribute to this debate, is that in my experience on projects, it is rarely a simple situation about what was written by whom. And the bigger the film, the more complex it gets. Lines get very very blurred in all directions, and ultimately no one person could even really KNOW (the composer included) who wrote every note on a film score - it simply becomes so multilayered with contributors that saying so and so did or didn't write a cue becomes an inaccurate simplification.

N8