Hans Zimmer occasionally drops in on threads on a music tech forum called 'VI-Control'. I already have shared stupid stuff he said on there. Unfortunately, I am inclined to share another one from Mr. Rctec.

The discussion starts off with referencing a comment a member of a panel for the sample library company Orchestra Tools referenced something Zimmer said about finding you own voice as a composer, and that 90 percent of demos he got were John Williams wannabees. Perhaps not bad advice on its own. But of course, Zimmer chimed in later and made it make a lot less sense.

https://youtu.be/7olZ-8Frx00?t=2081

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/90-of-them-sound-like-john-williams-wannabe-soundalikes-solved-thanks-hz.135338/page-6#post-5278668

Zimmer: 'But i was head of music at Dreamworks for ten years. When we started, my office was just a few feet from John Williams’ writing room, with Steven Spielberg’s office just above.
i took the job because I had the hope of us discovering many, many new and original voices of quality and distinction. I was hoping for hundreds Of fresh, new sounds of deep musicality and profound knowledge, passion and learning.
Instead I got mainly John Williams lite. And I could never work out why. If Steven Spielberg or any of the other directors wanted the John Williams sound, all they had to do was walk down the corridor and knock on his door…
why did anyone think it a good idea to send Steven a John Williams type track?'

In Zimmer's mind, the only reason a composer should sound like John Williams is literally if their name is John Williams. Being able to pull off a Williams imitation takes a lot of skill. I'm sure many of the demos he listened to were not of great quality. But that's not what Zimmer said. He said he declined to discover composers who sounded like John Williams. Now, if this attitude landed Williams any gigs, then great. Yet I'm taken aback and very disappointed by what Zimmer said and did here.

I am not sure what you think the problem here is. Zimmer is saying that he doesn't understand why anyone thinks sending a demo that sounds like John Williams to Steven is a good idea because he already have John Williams next door. He is saying that a lot of people were just copying John Williams rather than finding their own voice. That is like me working next to Zimmer and sending a track that sounds like Inception to try to get a job. Why wouldn't they just hire Zimmer?

I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It is not about skill, it is about have a creative voice.

(Message edited on Tuesday, January 24, 2023, at 7:43 p.m.)

> I am not sure what you think the problem here is. Zimmer is saying that he
> doesn't understand why anyone thinks sending a demo that sounds like John
> Williams to Steven is a good idea because he already have John Williams
> next door. He is saying that a lot of people were just copying John
> Williams rather than finding their own voice. That is like me working next
> to Zimmer and sending a track that sounds like Inception to try to get a
> job. Why wouldn't they just hire Zimmer?

> I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It is not about skill, it is
> about have a creative voice.

But it worked for Michael Giacchino. It worked very well for him.

> But it worked for Michael Giacchino. It worked very well for him.

And even Joel McNeely, to a lesser extent.

> And even Joel McNeely, to a lesser extent.

Much less unfortunately. Shadows of the Empire was ages ago now, and since then he’s done mostly obscure films, a panned Western comedy, Disney’s C list, and (thankfully) The Orville.

> Much less unfortunately. Shadows of the Empire was ages ago now, and since
> then he’s done mostly obscure films, a panned Western comedy, Disney’s C
> list, and (thankfully) The Orville.

Yeah, you would think a former protege of Jerry Goldsmith with exception talent deserves better.

> But it worked for Michael Giacchino. It worked very well for him.

I am not sure who is more insulted by this statement. Williams or Giacchino.

This is such a reach for something to be upset about. Better luck next time.

Yeah, this is a nothingburger. I do have to smirk over the thought of Zimmer getting righteously indignant over people submitting Williamsesque demos when I reckon the vast majority of wannabe composers these days probably submit Zimmeresque ones, but beyond that there ain't anything here. Nice try though.

Drew trying to create controversy where there isn't any... Shocker!

Dude, you really need to let go of that raging hard on you have for Zimmer and stop embarrassing yourself like this

1) There's a long record of Zimmer saying he doesn't like it when he hears film composers imitating other film composers. Williams has been mentioned a few times, but Zimmer has also said this about his own style being copied (even back in the late 90s). 'I think easy to identify a John Williams score, or a James Horner score, or a Jerry Goldsmith score - and usually you can do it within a few bars! That's a good thing: they have a point of view, a voice. Where I think it becomes problematic is if you hear somebody who writes a bit like John Williams, or writes a bit like Jerry Goldsmith, and they don't have an identity or a strong voice of their own.'

2) Zimmer in the 80s realized that submitting demos where he sounded like everyone else weren't winning him any gigs. 'In those days all I wanted was to go to Hollywood and sound like John Williams.' This is why there are certain instruments you will almost never hear in a Zimmer score (cymbal rolls, for starters).

3) The Dreamworks house style of music for its first decade didn't need people with John Williams chops. It probably still doesn't. You didn't know what job you were applying for if you did that. 'I don't know what [John's] process is, but it's clearly a great process, and it works for him. And we all have our own.'

4) Note what music has caught Zimmer's ear and gotten people jobs. Henry Jackman's Transfiguration. Benjamin Wallfisch's The Escapist heard in context.

5) Film composers do not like to listen to film music as reference points.

6) Zimmer is not anti-Williams. 'There’s a period where people were very derogatory about John Williams’ scores. They don’t realize the craftsmanship, the art that has gone into it, you know, The Witches Of Eastwick. What I like is actually that I’m still a fan of his music.'

THE SECOND-BEST REASON THIS IS THE DUMBEST - He said the same thing nine years ago!

“I would hope that somebody will turn it all on its head. Don’t send me anything that sounds like me! I can do that myself. People kept sending me demos that sounded just like John Williams, and I wondered why are they sending me this? If Steven wants to work with John Williams, all he has to do is walk 20 feet down the hall, and there’s the real thing. Put your own voice forward: be bold, be brave, and be original. Be the next thing. And that is still the case today.”

THE BEST REASON THIS IS THE DUMBEST - He said the same thing in 2001!

'There are a lot of poor, starving composers that came in as interns and are doing movies right now. I think I only have one rule - don't send me a demo where the first piece sounds like bad John Williams. I have John Williams' phone number, and he would probably love to write a really bad piece and send it over. I don't understand why people would want to do this. What I'm basically saying is, have your own voice. Have a point of view. Be yourself. That's the hard part; that's the discovery. I write in so many different styles, but I think it's unmistakable that it is me when you hear it. The guy who wrote Thelma and Louise is the guy who wrote Thin Red Line is the guy who wrote Nine Months is the guy who wrote Gladiator is the guy who wrote True Romance - it's all over the place, but it's a point of view.'

> 1) There's a long record of Zimmer saying he doesn't like it when he hears
> film composers imitating other film composers. Williams has been mentioned
> a few times, but Zimmer has also said this about his own style being
> copied (even back in the late 90s). 'I think easy to identify a John
> Williams score, or a James Horner score, or a Jerry Goldsmith score - and
> usually you can do it within a few bars! That's a good thing: they have a
> point of view, a voice. Where I think it becomes problematic is if you
> hear somebody who writes a bit like John Williams, or writes a bit like
> Jerry Goldsmith, and they don't have an identity or a strong voice of
> their own.'

> 2) Zimmer in the 80s realized that submitting demos where he sounded like
> everyone else weren't winning him any gigs. 'In those days all I wanted
> was to go to Hollywood and sound like John Williams.' This is why
> there are certain instruments you will almost never hear in a Zimmer score
> (cymbal rolls, for starters).

> 3) The Dreamworks house style of music for its first decade didn't need
> people with John Williams chops. It probably still doesn't. You didn't
> know what job you were applying for if you did that. 'I don't know what
> [John's] process is, but it's clearly a great process, and it works for
> him. And we all have our own.'

> 4) Note what music has caught Zimmer's ear and gotten people jobs.
> Henry Jackman's Transfiguration. Benjamin Wallfisch's The
> Escapist heard in context.

> 5) Film composers do not like to listen to film music as reference points.

> 6) Zimmer is not anti-Williams. 'There’s a period where people were
> very derogatory about John Williams’ scores. They don’t realize the
> craftsmanship, the art that has gone into it, you know, The Witches Of
> Eastwick. What I like is actually that I’m still a fan of his
> music.'

> THE SECOND-BEST REASON THIS IS THE DUMBEST - He said the same thing nine
> years ago!

> “I would hope that somebody will turn it all on its head. Don’t send me
> anything that sounds like me! I can do that myself. People kept sending me
> demos that sounded just like John Williams, and I wondered why are they
> sending me this? If Steven wants to work with John Williams, all he has to
> do is walk 20 feet down the hall, and there’s the real thing. Put your own
> voice forward: be bold, be brave, and be original. Be the next thing. And
> that is still the case today.”

> THE BEST REASON THIS IS THE DUMBEST - He said the same thing in 2001!

> 'There are a lot of poor, starving composers that came in as interns
> and are doing movies right now. I think I only have one rule - don't send
> me a demo where the first piece sounds like bad John Williams. I have John
> Williams' phone number, and he would probably love to write a really bad
> piece and send it over. I don't understand why people would want to do
> this. What I'm basically saying is, have your own voice. Have a point of
> view. Be yourself. That's the hard part; that's the discovery. I write in
> so many different styles, but I think it's unmistakable that it is me when
> you hear it. The guy who wrote Thelma and Louise is the guy who
> wrote Thin Red Line is the guy who wrote Nine Months is the
> guy who wrote Gladiator is the guy who wrote True Romance -
> it's all over the place, but it's a point of view.'

The Scoreboard is lucky to have people like you, who can summon up this information and these direct quotations just like that. It's this kind of thing that makes the board so worth revisiting, amongst all the other crock.

I will say though, in the video link on the original post, it does amuse me when HGW says 'Rich coming from Hans...' etc, someone else on the panel claims 'sounding like Hans is much harder' or something - I mean, I'm not sure I buy that haha.

> The Scoreboard is lucky to have people like you, who can summon up this information and these direct quotations just like that. It's this kind of thing that makes the board so worth revisiting, amongst all the other crock.

Thanks!

Admittedly having massive Google Docs with nearly every article I've read at some point in this rundown helps with stuff like this. You can imagine me reading Drew's post and thinking 'I'm pretty sure I have a few quotes about that somewhere in here...'

I was not diligent about this in the early months, which is why I'm annoyed I can't find the one profile of Tom Holkenborg where Zimmer goes out of his way to say how much classical music acumen Tom has. I know I read that last year!

Also, just discovering that there are 857 messages Zimmer's Rctec profile has posted in that forum to date means I have a great new way to waste time at some point.

> I will say though, in the video link on the original post, it does amuse me when HGW says 'Rich coming from Hans...' etc, someone else on the panel claims 'sounding like Hans is much harder' or something - I mean, I'm not sure I buy that haha.

It was hard to know which composer they were referencing the difficulty of imitating there. Dangling modifiers and all that.

I think Hans is probably overstating it when he says stuff like 90% are Williams-esque. Those are probably just the ones that stick in his mind more readily. And he may have been exaggerating for effect so that future applicants get the message.

I'm sure Harry was listening to a bunch of those demos when he was there in the 90s and early aughts, and maybe the ones he heard were all Zimmer wannabes. But then he probably hasn't heard any since. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

> Thanks!

> Admittedly having massive Google Docs with nearly every article I've read
> at some point in this rundown helps with stuff like this. You can imagine
> me reading Drew's post and thinking 'I'm pretty sure I have a few quotes
> about that somewhere in here...'

> I was not diligent about this in the early months, which is why I'm
> annoyed I can't find the one profile of Tom Holkenborg where Zimmer goes
> out of his way to say how much classical music acumen Tom has. I know I
> read that last year!

> Also, just discovering that there are 857 messages Zimmer's Rctec profile
> has posted in that forum to date means I have a great new way to waste
> time at some point.

Haha endless joy.

> It was hard to know which composer they were referencing the difficulty of
> imitating there. Dangling modifiers and all that.

> I think Hans is probably overstating it when he says stuff like 90% are
> Williams-esque. Those are probably just the ones that stick in his mind
> more readily. And he may have been exaggerating for effect so that future
> applicants get the message.

> I'm sure Harry was listening to a bunch of those demos when he was there
> in the 90s and early aughts, and maybe the ones he heard were all Zimmer
> wannabes. But then he probably hasn't heard any since. The truth is
> probably somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, and with both Hans and Williams it's sort of more obvious if you're trying to imitate them, both for their distinctive style and their prominence in the culture. It's fair to say you wouldn't get such a laugh for pastiching Jeff Danna's Gospel of John as you would the Star Wars main theme, say.

But that brings me onto the other thing mentioned on this thread, which is that film composers seem to prefer to look beyond film music for their next inspiration. I have no problem with that, except that it often means pilfering from some not particularly obscure classical works - for both Williams and Zimmer. Does Zimmer mind if he gets demos ripping themes from Wagner, for instance?

To be clear, I'm not trying to criticise Gladiator or Hannibal here haha I love those scores, and I think in both cases tapping into those influences so obviously was either explicitly or implicitly what Ridley was after. I'm just commenting on the notion of 'finding something fresh for film music'.

> I write in
> so many different styles, but I think it's unmistakable that it is me when
> you hear it. The guy who wrote Thelma and Louise is the guy who
> wrote Thin Red Line is the guy who wrote Nine Months is the
> guy who wrote Gladiator is the guy who wrote True Romance -
> it's all over the place, but it's a point of view.'

Ugh what a bloviated statement by an egotistical idiot. He has no problem contradicting himself I see.

> Ugh what a bloviated statement by an egotistical idiot. He has no problem contradicting himself I see.

I don't know if I get that from the quote. It read like 'they're all different, but you know they're mine' to me.

> Ugh what a bloviated statement by an egotistical idiot. He has no problem
> contradicting himself I see.

Lol, faux outraged much? I think you are missing the point Zimmer is making here. All he's saying is that Thelma & Louise sounds nothing like Nine Months which sounds like nothing Gladiator which sounds nothing like True Romance but it's clear they are all written by Zimmer.

Same like for instance Beetlejuice sounds nothing like Midnight Run which sounds nothing like Batman which sounds nothing like The Kingdom which sounds nothing like Alice in Wonderland which sounds nothing like Fifty Shades of Grey, yet it's clear they are all Danny Elfman scores.

It's amusing how people are so blinded by their hate for Zimmer that everything the man says outrages them

> Lol, faux outraged much? I think you are missing the point Zimmer is
> making here. All he's saying is that Thelma & Louise sounds nothing
> like Nine Months which sounds like nothing Gladiator which sounds nothing
> like True Romance but it's clear they are all written by Zimmer.

> Same like for instance Beetlejuice sounds nothing like Midnight Run which
> sounds nothing like Batman which sounds nothing like The Kingdom which
> sounds nothing like Alice in Wonderland which sounds nothing like Fifty
> Shades of Grey, yet it's clear they are all Danny Elfman scores.

> It's amusing how people are so blinded by their hate for Zimmer that
> everything the man says outrages them

Hmmm Gladiator sounds more like Holst than Zimmer.

He was gatekeeping. Rejecting artists because they sound like someone else is the height of gatekeeping. Now instead of a generation of composers who sound like Williams, we have a generation of composers who sound like Zimmer.

I see your distaste of Zimmer is getting in the way of your reading comprehrension.

> Hmmm Gladiator sounds more like Holst than Zimmer.

Lol, you mean just like Star Wars sounds like Holst

> Lol, you mean just like Star Wars sounds like Holst

And where did Williams reject up and coming artists because they sounded like someone else? I must have missed that quote.

> And where did Williams reject up and coming artists because they sounded
> like someone else? I must have missed that quote.

But that's not what Zimmer was saying. What he said was that he rejected composers for lacking an own, original voice.

> Now instead of a generation of composers who sound like Williams, we have a generation of composers who sound like Zimmer.

Yep, that's why John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Mark Mancina, Jeff Rona, Gavin Greenaway, and plenty of others who've worked for/with him sound exactly like him.

We're also presupposing that all these people with Williams-esque demos would've succeeded at Remote Control and gone on to have successful careers simply by having Zimmer take a more favorable view of their demos? Not everyone who goes through the factory becomes an A-lister; Henning Lohner for starters, and it took years after Pinar Toprak's time there for her career to start to take off.

We don't have a generation of John Williams-esque composers for two reasons. His talent is singular and thus hard to duplicate (same with Goldsmith). And the filmmakers hiring Zimmer and other more contemporary composers don't want that sound in their movies; if more directors and producers wanted Zimmer to be more symphonic, he'd hire more symphonic collaborators.

Why are we pointing the finger at Zimmer and not, like, the people paying Zimmer to write music? If you don't like the sound, that has much more to do with Bruckheimer, Katzenberg, the Scott brothers, and so on.

Cosign everything JBlough said. I don't like Zimmer as a person but this whole thread is silliness.

> Lol, faux outraged much?

Also, please don't confuse my distaste for outrage. That would be disingenuous of you.

Our Beloved and Dear Lord Satan, forgive our writing to you in this manner. We thank you for your gifts of drought, famine, and Donald J. Trump, and we ask you to bless us going forward by sending many unHoly demons into the toilets of Remote Control Productions at 1547 14th Street, Santa Monica, California, 90404 in the USA.

Help us mastermind this mighty, powerful persecution and destroy the will of Hans Zimmer and the many fake composers who gravitate to his awful music studio for the purpose of generating wretched film scores! Lord Satan, use the glorious majesty of your throne to make their toilets growl with the most hideous of beasts and tentacles! Amen!!