> Hey folks,

> I got to interview John Murphy and David Fleming about their polarizing
> Superman score. So that was pretty cool! Here are some excerpts from the
> piece, where we talked about adapting the Williams theme, the aesthetic
> choices for the film, and how they split the work. You can read the full
> thing in this month's issue of Film Score Monthly (it's the cover story!),
> where we go more in-depth about the new themes they wrote, specific cues,
> and more. (Really, this part is only like half the article!) Hope y'all
> enjoy.

> Rad-swaggity.

>

> Super-men
> John Murphy and David Fleming tackle the Man of Steel… and his little dog
> too!
> By Vikram Lakhanpal

> Warner Bros.’ latest attempt at a shared superhero universe launched last
> month with Superman, yet another film iteration of the character
> Superman. Written and directed by James Gunn (now also co-chair of DC
> Studios), the movie features music from both John Murphy, who previously
> collaborated with Gunn on superhero films Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol.
> 3 and The Suicide Squad, and Remote Control member David
> Fleming, whose recent prolific output includes Damsel and The
> Alto Knights.

> I talked with Murphy and Fleming about finding a new sound for a familiar
> character, adapting John Williams’ famous theme from the 1978 film
> Superman: The Movie, and much more. The interviews with Murphy and
> Fleming were conducted separately, honoring the way they worked on the
> score itself (kidding—it was in order to navigate their different
> schedules); their responses have been arranged and lightly edited for flow
> and clarity.

> Vikram Lakhanpal: Since the score is credited to you both, can you
> talk about how the work was split between the two of you and how much
> discussion or collaboration there was?

> David Fleming: Well, John already had a long-standing relationship
> with James Gunn—they went back on a couple films, and John did great
> scores for those. I believe he was one of James’ first calls when he was
> starting Superman, and John got started with a lot of early work and
> experimentation with the [Williams] Superman theme, as well as this great
> love theme for Clark and Lois, and a really cool theme for Lex as well. I
> came on the project later.

> Superman is a big film, and there’s a lot of music, so even though John
> had done all this early work, there was still more room to explore. The
> center of what I got involved with was exploring the John Williams theme
> more, and what pieces of it could be used to add more dimensions to the
> story. We knew James didn’t want to use the John Williams theme straight
> up, but he did want to use that DNA and we found that breaking it down
> into parts allowed us to use different pieces of that DNA for different
> parts of Clark’s story. That was a lot of my focus, as well as defining a
> lot of the action set pieces, but also defining the sound of The Daily
> Planet, the Justice Gang and Krypto. And between my part of the score and
> John’s part of the score, we were trying to define the tone of this DCU.
> It was an interesting mix of accessing the core DNA of the John Williams
> theme to deal with Superman, but then also working all around him to
> define all these new characters. Obviously Superman’s got a big history,
> but a lot of these characters are on-screen for the first time, and it’s
> their first time with a theme applied to them.

> When I came on, I talked with John [Murphy] about what he had done, and
> what I was going do. There wasn’t a lot of time for direct collaboration.
> I think we both would’ve loved to get in a room together to work, but that
> wasn’t going to be possible with the timing. But there’s one track—on the
> album it’s called “Metropolis”—which is the closest we had to a
> collaboration. John had done this really cool repeating guitar motif, and
> then I continued it and added orchestra. I think that track is
> representative of our contributions in a way, because John had this really
> cool electric guitar sound for Superman, and then I sort of take it,
> expand it, and deepen it a bit with the orchestra. So, I think that was a
> fun track for both of us.

> John Murphy: There was so much music that had to be delivered on
> this movie, and on these big films the cut is changing and it’s always a
> very active time with a lot of things happening. In terms of who was doing
> what, that was always down to James. But the nice thing is there are cues
> through the film that were both of us. Dave would jump into one of my
> themes and then he’ll jump back out to his. So, it was a very easy
> relationship. One of my favorite cues is at the end, “Metropolis,” which
> started off as a kind of acoustic guitar, a laconic, Radiohead-y type
> track. And then Dave came in and added these beautiful strings and changed
> some of the chords and stuff. In moments like that, you can see why
> composers do that more often. You know why some composers enjoy working
> with another composer, because you do end up with stuff that neither of
> you would’ve come up with yourself.

> VL: David mentioned that exact same cue!

> JM: Yeah, I wish we’d done more [like that]. It’s a shame that we
> didn’t get to just sit in a room and knock stuff out that way, the old
> Lennon-McCartney way. I remember on Kick-Ass, me and Henry
> [Jackman] got to write some stuff in the room together, and that was the
> fun bit, because we all just want to be in a band, really. None of us
> wanna be film composers, we all just wanna be in Nirvana! So, it’s a shame
> we didn’t get to do some of that. But by that point, everything was going
> at a thousand miles an hour. The collaborations were kind of by proxy, but
> where they happened, I thought it was really successful. Dave’s a great
> composer, and a really good guy. It was a lot to do, and we just got on
> with it.

> VL: Was there a lot of specific guidance, either from James Gunn or
> from Warner Bros. about how to use the John Williams material? Or is was
> it just, “Let’s use the Williams theme”?

> JM: It was more a case of exploration. When we talked about the
> possibility of bringing back the theme, there was a lot of experimenting.
> Those conversations happened when the movie hadn’t been shot yet. I had
> the script, and it was a case of, “Let’s see where we can take that
> theme.” I tried everything with that motif, just to see where it could go.
> I moved it from a major into a minor key, I slowed it down and broke the
> notes apart, I tried it in all these different genres. There was an
> ethereal version, and a Schubert version with an opera singer, and a very
> bombastic version in a minor key. There was even a doom metal version, and
> a punk version at one point!

> But what was amazing for me was that no matter what you do to that motif,
> it still sounded like the Superman theme. No matter what I did to break it
> apart, no matter what I played it on, it was still that fantastic, iconic
> theme. And that’s a testament to how brilliant the theme actually is, that
> you could translate it into so many different emotions, on so many
> different instruments and so many different genres. It really shows the
> genius and simplicity of it.

> DF: There wasn’t any [guidance] on how [to use the theme],
> but the question of whether we would use it was already decided. Like I
> said, John Murphy had done this really great guitar arrangement and it was
> already put in the film at a really pivotal moment. So, it was there, and
> they used it in the trailer, and there was a lot of talk about whether it
> made sense to pay it off at this big moment without using it as the theme
> for the rest of the movie. One of the early things I tried was seeing if
> there was a spot in this movie that could handle the original march, with
> the original orchestration. I did try it, and although it was fun at
> moments, I think James felt it wasn’t going to fit his film. James is so
> musical, and I felt like he wanted to do a loving cover version of the
> theme. To embrace the spirit of it, but not be a tribute band because
> they’ve already done it perfectly in that original Richard Donner film.

> So, that’s where conceptually I was coming from. James was embracing the
> spirit of the 1978 movie, but at the same time, this is a James Gunn film,
> and it’s very singularly his voice. It was an embrace of the past, but
> looking to the future as well. And one way that we tried to do that was to
> break [the theme] into its parts. The opening call, for instance,
> (sings opening phrase), that that ends up being used as a
> jumping-off point for a lot of the action beats. And then the B
> section—which is really the A section—the (sings main theme), John
> Murphy was already using it in that pivotal moment. And we use it at a
> couple moments in the film where Superman has these big triumphs.

> Then I saw an opportunity for a thread that was more Clark-related. It’s
> interesting in this film, Clark and Superman are so much more the same
> person, and he has this thread throughout the film of this message from
> his Kryptonian parents that defined his purpose on earth. Partway through
> the film, that’s called into question, and he has to redefine his purpose.
> So, there was this thematic thread that we hadn’t been stitching together
> musically. I started playing around on the piano while I was on a Zoom
> with James, and I told him the back part of John Williams’ theme, the
> major seventh jump at the end, (sings ending) was always the part
> that got me emotional. There’s the masculine, heroic first part, but then
> in the back half, the chord that he uses is really gorgeous and it points
> to an emotion.

> I started playing that very sort of slowly with these building chords, and
> James started getting emotional, and that became that last piece of DNA,
> which I think keys more specifically into this version of Superman, and
> James’ kind of vulnerable Superman. I mean, there are moments where it’s
> big and brassy, but it starts with a choir, it’s more contemplative, it’s
> more building. And while I was playing that on the piano, and we were
> searching for something, I think there was this feeling that we were
> unearthing this thing that obviously already existed and didn’t need to be
> perfected or anything. It just was played in a different way that seemed
> to fit James’ version and David [Corenswet]’s portrayal of Superman in a
> way that we couldn’t have done with the tune as it was originally
> orchestrated, with all the beauty and bombast.

> VL: It does almost feel like you’re trying to transform that final
> phrase into the main theme for this film.

> DF: Yeah. And I don’t think it started with that intent. It was
> half a musical discovery, and half a spotting discovery. Although it’s
> tempting to see all the big moments where he beats the bad guy and play
> the main theme—like when he blows his way out of the black hole, of course
> that’s going to be a heroic moment. But if you break it down from what his
> character struggles with and learns through the film, it became this
> musical thread of, “What’s my purpose on Earth?” That’s called into
> question, and he has to redefine his purpose, with Pa Kent talking to him
> and recontextualizing the life journey that he’s been on. Then finally it
> culminates with him telling Lex, “My humanity is my superpower, not me
> being an alien or a god or some sort of metaphor.” His actions, his
> choices are what give him his power.

> I don’t think it was ever set out to be the main theme, and maybe if we
> had approached it like that, we would’ve been afraid to treat it in a
> different way. But it started finding its way into all of these scenes,
> and you’re right, it does sort of connect that arc throughout the film.

> VL: John, you mentioned trying various things with the theme, and
> David, you talked about transforming the theme to fit a James Gunn
> context. Could you talk more about the aesthetic choices for this score?

> JM: I really left it to James. I was just messing around, trying
> things. What was surprising for me, to be honest, was the guitar version
> that ended up being in the very first trailer, because that came about by
> accident. I was just waiting to record a different cue, and when you’re
> sitting and waiting to record something, you end up noodling. I was just
> noodling that theme on the guitar I was gonna use, and it made me smile.
> Because I thought, even on a dirty electric guitar through a Vox AC15
> [amplifier], it still felt like the Superman theme. I played it just for
> fun in that Hendrix “Star-Spangled Banner” style. I thought, “I couldn’t…
> could I really get away with this? Or will I go to composer hell for to
> daring to play such a beloved theme on a dirty guitar?” (Laughs)
> But it made me smile enough to think I should just record a version, send
> it to James, and see what he thinks.

> The shock came when we were still scoring the movie, and Warners got in
> touch and said, “We need to record the first trailer.” They sent me a
> copy, I have no idea what’s in it, and it has that version playing. I was
> shocked! I thought, “Oh no, this is gonna be the first thing that people
> are gonna hear!” This new sound, and it’s me just noodling this beloved
> theme on guitar for fun! I was like, “No, no, no, don’t do this.” But by
> the time I got to the end of the trailer, I was so blown away with the
> experience, and so excited that it was really happening. I thought, “Well,
> maybe, why not?” Maybe we could get away with this.

> Because one of the things about this movie—and no disrespect to any of the
> movies that came before—but we were going to have some fun with this, and
> in a lot of respects going back to the original comic books, and the sense
> of wonder and fun. I thought, maybe we should nail our flag to the mast
> and say, this isn’t gonna be a dark, brooding movie. We’re gonna have fun,
> and we’re going to be entertained, and we’re gonna do things that maybe we
> shouldn’t do. (Laughs) In hindsight, clearly people were open to
> that. And so maybe that little bit of noodling wasn’t such a stupid idea
> after all. It showed people that we were gonna have fun and it would be
> okay.

> DM: On this specific score, it’s really tricky with Superman,
> because it does have all of this history, and James wanted to embrace part
> of that while still sayin, “This is my version.” I know when John did the
> electric guitar, there was a definitive choice made there, to have guitar
> be a part of the score. There’s references to punk rock in the movie, and
> although we weren’t doing a punk rock score, we wanted to work a guitar
> and a drum kit in with the orchestral sounds. You’re not even always aware
> that there’s guitar on top of the violins. And it’s something that seemed
> to fit this world. Because what James is doing, which I think is really
> clever, is he’s embracing the sincerity of Superman, but there’s still
> that wink, especially with some of the side characters in this world. It
> still has his sense of humor and that edge.

> VL: More broadly, do you think the John Williams aesthetic is still
> viable in modern Hollywood?

> DF: Oh, yeah! It’s a classic sound, but I think there’s a place for
> everything. And I come from the school of believing it’s about the
> filmmaker and the approach to the individual film. I’ve always loved the
> symphonic sound, and I tried to do something closer to that on a score
> like Damsel, where we were trying to evoke that sound.

> The John Williams sound defined Hollywood for so many years in many ways.
> If the sound has changed, it’s almost a reaction to how definitive that
> sound was. So, I believe we’re in a really exciting time where directors
> have embraced that the sound of a score can be as much of a part of
> the character as the theme itself. And for me personally, that’s always
> why I loved working with Hans, because the sound of the score was as
> important. But I think on this specific one, the challenge was how do we
> embrace elements of that symphonic sound, but have it be able to sit next
> to these guitar moments and not feel like insane whiplash.

> JM: I think the aesthetic for sure [is still viable], because John
> Williams is a craftsman of the highest order. If you want to understand
> how thematic structure works in film scoring, then there’s no one better
> to look at. I have my favorite composers that I will always listen to, but
> there are composers that I learn from too. And the way John constructs a
> score is mind-blowing—how articulate he is, and how clear his ideas are.
> When he’s taking a motif, using it and developing it, the complexity is
> mind-blowing. It’s beautiful when you start to understand what he’s doing,
> it’s something to behold. And I think it would be unfair to just assume
> that because John worked so heavily in the classical, orchestral realm
> that it wouldn’t be as applicable today. I think that’s the wrong way to
> look at it. I think he has such an amazing sense of carrying the audience
> along with the story. John is an amazing storyteller and he’s clear in his
> thoughts.

> That will always be applicable to film music. I don’t think that will ever
> be tied to a style or genre or instrumentation. Those things are secondary
> to me. I think the most important thing in film music, and it would be in
> a thousand years, is to be a storyteller. So, I think he’s as relevant
> today as he ever was, because I think it really is all about storytelling.
> People will ask questions about writing to picture, composing to picture.
> That’s not what we do! Composers write to story The fact that
> there’s images and a spaceship is here and a planet’s there, that’s just
> another iteration of the story. So, having that God-given ability to
> construct scores in the way that John does to story will always be the
> most important thing for me.

Can't wait to read the whole interview bud, great job! Must've been very exciting.