Hey folks,

I got to interview John Murphy and David Fleming about their polarizing Superman score. So that was pretty cool! Here are some excerpts from the piece, where we talked about adapting the Williams theme, the aesthetic choices for the film, and how they split the work. You can read the full thing in this month's issue of Film Score Monthly (it's the cover story!), where we go more in-depth about the new themes they wrote, specific cues, and more. (Really, this part is only like half the article!) Hope y'all enjoy.

Rad-swaggity.

Super-men
John Murphy and David Fleming tackle the Man of Steel… and his little dog too!
By Vikram Lakhanpal

Warner Bros.’ latest attempt at a shared superhero universe launched last month with Superman, yet another film iteration of the character Superman. Written and directed by James Gunn (now also co-chair of DC Studios), the movie features music from both John Murphy, who previously collaborated with Gunn on superhero films Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 3 and The Suicide Squad, and Remote Control member David Fleming, whose recent prolific output includes Damsel and The Alto Knights.

I talked with Murphy and Fleming about finding a new sound for a familiar character, adapting John Williams’ famous theme from the 1978 film Superman: The Movie, and much more. The interviews with Murphy and Fleming were conducted separately, honoring the way they worked on the score itself (kidding—it was in order to navigate their different schedules); their responses have been arranged and lightly edited for flow and clarity.

Vikram Lakhanpal: Since the score is credited to you both, can you talk about how the work was split between the two of you and how much discussion or collaboration there was?

David Fleming: Well, John already had a long-standing relationship with James Gunn—they went back on a couple films, and John did great scores for those. I believe he was one of James’ first calls when he was starting Superman, and John got started with a lot of early work and experimentation with the [Williams] Superman theme, as well as this great love theme for Clark and Lois, and a really cool theme for Lex as well. I came on the project later.

Superman is a big film, and there’s a lot of music, so even though John had done all this early work, there was still more room to explore. The center of what I got involved with was exploring the John Williams theme more, and what pieces of it could be used to add more dimensions to the story. We knew James didn’t want to use the John Williams theme straight up, but he did want to use that DNA and we found that breaking it down into parts allowed us to use different pieces of that DNA for different parts of Clark’s story. That was a lot of my focus, as well as defining a lot of the action set pieces, but also defining the sound of The Daily Planet, the Justice Gang and Krypto. And between my part of the score and John’s part of the score, we were trying to define the tone of this DCU. It was an interesting mix of accessing the core DNA of the John Williams theme to deal with Superman, but then also working all around him to define all these new characters. Obviously Superman’s got a big history, but a lot of these characters are on-screen for the first time, and it’s their first time with a theme applied to them.

When I came on, I talked with John [Murphy] about what he had done, and what I was going do. There wasn’t a lot of time for direct collaboration. I think we both would’ve loved to get in a room together to work, but that wasn’t going to be possible with the timing. But there’s one track—on the album it’s called “Metropolis”—which is the closest we had to a collaboration. John had done this really cool repeating guitar motif, and then I continued it and added orchestra. I think that track is representative of our contributions in a way, because John had this really cool electric guitar sound for Superman, and then I sort of take it, expand it, and deepen it a bit with the orchestra. So, I think that was a fun track for both of us.

John Murphy: There was so much music that had to be delivered on this movie, and on these big films the cut is changing and it’s always a very active time with a lot of things happening. In terms of who was doing what, that was always down to James. But the nice thing is there are cues through the film that were both of us. Dave would jump into one of my themes and then he’ll jump back out to his. So, it was a very easy relationship. One of my favorite cues is at the end, “Metropolis,” which started off as a kind of acoustic guitar, a laconic, Radiohead-y type track. And then Dave came in and added these beautiful strings and changed some of the chords and stuff. In moments like that, you can see why composers do that more often. You know why some composers enjoy working with another composer, because you do end up with stuff that neither of you would’ve come up with yourself.

VL: David mentioned that exact same cue!

JM: Yeah, I wish we’d done more [like that]. It’s a shame that we didn’t get to just sit in a room and knock stuff out that way, the old Lennon-McCartney way. I remember on Kick-Ass, me and Henry [Jackman] got to write some stuff in the room together, and that was the fun bit, because we all just want to be in a band, really. None of us wanna be film composers, we all just wanna be in Nirvana! So, it’s a shame we didn’t get to do some of that. But by that point, everything was going at a thousand miles an hour. The collaborations were kind of by proxy, but where they happened, I thought it was really successful. Dave’s a great composer, and a really good guy. It was a lot to do, and we just got on with it.

VL: Was there a lot of specific guidance, either from James Gunn or from Warner Bros. about how to use the John Williams material? Or is was it just, “Let’s use the Williams theme”?

JM: It was more a case of exploration. When we talked about the possibility of bringing back the theme, there was a lot of experimenting. Those conversations happened when the movie hadn’t been shot yet. I had the script, and it was a case of, “Let’s see where we can take that theme.” I tried everything with that motif, just to see where it could go. I moved it from a major into a minor key, I slowed it down and broke the notes apart, I tried it in all these different genres. There was an ethereal version, and a Schubert version with an opera singer, and a very bombastic version in a minor key. There was even a doom metal version, and a punk version at one point!

But what was amazing for me was that no matter what you do to that motif, it still sounded like the Superman theme. No matter what I did to break it apart, no matter what I played it on, it was still that fantastic, iconic theme. And that’s a testament to how brilliant the theme actually is, that you could translate it into so many different emotions, on so many different instruments and so many different genres. It really shows the genius and simplicity of it.

DF: There wasn’t any [guidance] on how [to use the theme], but the question of whether we would use it was already decided. Like I said, John Murphy had done this really great guitar arrangement and it was already put in the film at a really pivotal moment. So, it was there, and they used it in the trailer, and there was a lot of talk about whether it made sense to pay it off at this big moment without using it as the theme for the rest of the movie. One of the early things I tried was seeing if there was a spot in this movie that could handle the original march, with the original orchestration. I did try it, and although it was fun at moments, I think James felt it wasn’t going to fit his film. James is so musical, and I felt like he wanted to do a loving cover version of the theme. To embrace the spirit of it, but not be a tribute band because they’ve already done it perfectly in that original Richard Donner film.

So, that’s where conceptually I was coming from. James was embracing the spirit of the 1978 movie, but at the same time, this is a James Gunn film, and it’s very singularly his voice. It was an embrace of the past, but looking to the future as well. And one way that we tried to do that was to break [the theme] into its parts. The opening call, for instance, (sings opening phrase), that that ends up being used as a jumping-off point for a lot of the action beats. And then the B section—which is really the A section—the (sings main theme), John Murphy was already using it in that pivotal moment. And we use it at a couple moments in the film where Superman has these big triumphs.

Then I saw an opportunity for a thread that was more Clark-related. It’s interesting in this film, Clark and Superman are so much more the same person, and he has this thread throughout the film of this message from his Kryptonian parents that defined his purpose on earth. Partway through the film, that’s called into question, and he has to redefine his purpose. So, there was this thematic thread that we hadn’t been stitching together musically. I started playing around on the piano while I was on a Zoom with James, and I told him the back part of John Williams’ theme, the major seventh jump at the end, (sings ending) was always the part that got me emotional. There’s the masculine, heroic first part, but then in the back half, the chord that he uses is really gorgeous and it points to an emotion.

I started playing that very sort of slowly with these building chords, and James started getting emotional, and that became that last piece of DNA, which I think keys more specifically into this version of Superman, and James’ kind of vulnerable Superman. I mean, there are moments where it’s big and brassy, but it starts with a choir, it’s more contemplative, it’s more building. And while I was playing that on the piano, and we were searching for something, I think there was this feeling that we were unearthing this thing that obviously already existed and didn’t need to be perfected or anything. It just was played in a different way that seemed to fit James’ version and David [Corenswet]’s portrayal of Superman in a way that we couldn’t have done with the tune as it was originally orchestrated, with all the beauty and bombast.

VL: It does almost feel like you’re trying to transform that final phrase into the main theme for this film.

DF: Yeah. And I don’t think it started with that intent. It was half a musical discovery, and half a spotting discovery. Although it’s tempting to see all the big moments where he beats the bad guy and play the main theme—like when he blows his way out of the black hole, of course that’s going to be a heroic moment. But if you break it down from what his character struggles with and learns through the film, it became this musical thread of, “What’s my purpose on Earth?” That’s called into question, and he has to redefine his purpose, with Pa Kent talking to him and recontextualizing the life journey that he’s been on. Then finally it culminates with him telling Lex, “My humanity is my superpower, not me being an alien or a god or some sort of metaphor.” His actions, his choices are what give him his power.

I don’t think it was ever set out to be the main theme, and maybe if we had approached it like that, we would’ve been afraid to treat it in a different way. But it started finding its way into all of these scenes, and you’re right, it does sort of connect that arc throughout the film.

VL: John, you mentioned trying various things with the theme, and David, you talked about transforming the theme to fit a James Gunn context. Could you talk more about the aesthetic choices for this score?

JM: I really left it to James. I was just messing around, trying things. What was surprising for me, to be honest, was the guitar version that ended up being in the very first trailer, because that came about by accident. I was just waiting to record a different cue, and when you’re sitting and waiting to record something, you end up noodling. I was just noodling that theme on the guitar I was gonna use, and it made me smile. Because I thought, even on a dirty electric guitar through a Vox AC15 [amplifier], it still felt like the Superman theme. I played it just for fun in that Hendrix “Star-Spangled Banner” style. I thought, “I couldn’t… could I really get away with this? Or will I go to composer hell for to daring to play such a beloved theme on a dirty guitar?” (Laughs) But it made me smile enough to think I should just record a version, send it to James, and see what he thinks.

The shock came when we were still scoring the movie, and Warners got in touch and said, “We need to record the first trailer.” They sent me a copy, I have no idea what’s in it, and it has that version playing. I was shocked! I thought, “Oh no, this is gonna be the first thing that people are gonna hear!” This new sound, and it’s me just noodling this beloved theme on guitar for fun! I was like, “No, no, no, don’t do this.” But by the time I got to the end of the trailer, I was so blown away with the experience, and so excited that it was really happening. I thought, “Well, maybe, why not?” Maybe we could get away with this.

Because one of the things about this movie—and no disrespect to any of the movies that came before—but we were going to have some fun with this, and in a lot of respects going back to the original comic books, and the sense of wonder and fun. I thought, maybe we should nail our flag to the mast and say, this isn’t gonna be a dark, brooding movie. We’re gonna have fun, and we’re going to be entertained, and we’re gonna do things that maybe we shouldn’t do. (Laughs) In hindsight, clearly people were open to that. And so maybe that little bit of noodling wasn’t such a stupid idea after all. It showed people that we were gonna have fun and it would be okay.

DM: On this specific score, it’s really tricky with Superman, because it does have all of this history, and James wanted to embrace part of that while still sayin, “This is my version.” I know when John did the electric guitar, there was a definitive choice made there, to have guitar be a part of the score. There’s references to punk rock in the movie, and although we weren’t doing a punk rock score, we wanted to work a guitar and a drum kit in with the orchestral sounds. You’re not even always aware that there’s guitar on top of the violins. And it’s something that seemed to fit this world. Because what James is doing, which I think is really clever, is he’s embracing the sincerity of Superman, but there’s still that wink, especially with some of the side characters in this world. It still has his sense of humor and that edge.

VL: More broadly, do you think the John Williams aesthetic is still viable in modern Hollywood?

DF: Oh, yeah! It’s a classic sound, but I think there’s a place for everything. And I come from the school of believing it’s about the filmmaker and the approach to the individual film. I’ve always loved the symphonic sound, and I tried to do something closer to that on a score like Damsel, where we were trying to evoke that sound.

The John Williams sound defined Hollywood for so many years in many ways. If the sound has changed, it’s almost a reaction to how definitive that sound was. So, I believe we’re in a really exciting time where directors have embraced that the sound of a score can be as much of a part of the character as the theme itself. And for me personally, that’s always why I loved working with Hans, because the sound of the score was as important. But I think on this specific one, the challenge was how do we embrace elements of that symphonic sound, but have it be able to sit next to these guitar moments and not feel like insane whiplash.

JM: I think the aesthetic for sure [is still viable], because John Williams is a craftsman of the highest order. If you want to understand how thematic structure works in film scoring, then there’s no one better to look at. I have my favorite composers that I will always listen to, but there are composers that I learn from too. And the way John constructs a score is mind-blowing—how articulate he is, and how clear his ideas are. When he’s taking a motif, using it and developing it, the complexity is mind-blowing. It’s beautiful when you start to understand what he’s doing, it’s something to behold. And I think it would be unfair to just assume that because John worked so heavily in the classical, orchestral realm that it wouldn’t be as applicable today. I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. I think he has such an amazing sense of carrying the audience along with the story. John is an amazing storyteller and he’s clear in his thoughts.

That will always be applicable to film music. I don’t think that will ever be tied to a style or genre or instrumentation. Those things are secondary to me. I think the most important thing in film music, and it would be in a thousand years, is to be a storyteller. So, I think he’s as relevant today as he ever was, because I think it really is all about storytelling. People will ask questions about writing to picture, composing to picture. That’s not what we do! Composers write to story The fact that there’s images and a spaceship is here and a planet’s there, that’s just another iteration of the story. So, having that God-given ability to construct scores in the way that John does to story will always be the most important thing for me.